water checmistry puzzle

[pascal32]

I sold a scoly to a local fellow a week or two ago. The scoly had some damage at the top, however it was healing and mighty healthy when i handed it over.

He called me up and said the scoly was loosing color (bleaching) and the area that was healing is now infected. long of the short I offered to test all his parameters to make sure the scoly had a good home. here are the results:

Salinity - 1.022 (refractometer, checked calibration against 35ppt and it is spot on)
KH - 10.4 (salifert)
CA - OVER 500 (salifert kit reads up to 500, it is beyond that, tested twice and verified my tank at 410)
Am - 0 (API)
Nitrate - over 160 (I only have the API, tested twice)
Nitrite - 0 (APPI)
phosphate - 2.5 (hanna checker)

so there is room for improvement there. he does NOT add anything (2-part, B-Ionic etc). He has had this tank for a while (several months). the tank only has the scoly, some palys and mushrooms in it along with (2) tomoto clowns, (1) damsel, (2) cardinal, and (2) snails.

No reported losses of fish. he has a skimmer, sounds low end. there is some sort of foam filter also, which he said he cleans.

he bought it used with sand, liverock, livestock and VERY old PC lights on it. just before he picked up the scoly he replaced the lights and had a massive algae outbreak. His glass was getting covered daily. just recently things seem to be better and the glass is staying clearer.

so the questions:

(1) how does CA get that high when there is no dosing and the salinity is so low?

(2) I recommended 50% water changes daily for 3 days to drop the level down. any other suggestions?

I have not seen the tank personally as he bought the water to my place for testing. I do have some pictures though:

Note: after this experience I might have to start asking people what their parameters are before selling!

BEFORE picture:

 

[redrider911]

With numbers like that, it would be very hard for me to believe anything he says.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

S.G. needs to be brought up to 1.025-1.026 slowly but ASAP.

Nitrate (over 160?!) is a problem and it must be reduced.

If calcifying organisms aren't consuming Ca/alk it's not being reduced. Saltmix high in Ca (Oceanic here?) can remain high indefinitely if there's no demand.

 

[pascal32]

With numbers like that, it would be very hard for me to believe anything he says.

I believe he was lead to believe a 10% change every two weeks or so and life goes on. Amazing that the mushrooms and paly's are doing so well.

To his credit he is trying and is getting on the water changes. This misfortune will be educational, unfortunately it might be at the expense of livestock which has no control over their home.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

jmo

jmo

caveat emptor- buyer beware. I hope you guys can work it out.
IMO:
there should be no reason a seller needs to find out the water parameters of a purchasers aquarium (or if they have an aquarium for that matter!)

 

[pascal32]

S.G. needs to be brought up to 1.025-1.026 slowly but ASAP.

Nitrate (over 160?!) is a problem and it must be reduced.

If calcifying organisms aren't consuming Ca/alk it's not being reduced. Saltmix high in Ca (Oceanic here?) can remain high indefinitely if there's no demand.

yes, oceanic instant ocean. How bad is it to have CA that high?

I forgot to write that up, I did put that on the top of his "to do" list. I suggested a .001 increase in the 50% water change and to use salt water topoff.

he is using a hydrometer which reads .002 high - at least he knows that now.

I forgot the other shocker (overwhelmed by the other numbers i suppose) - temp was over 82 at 7PM - can't image the daytime. I suggested a small clipon fan - unfortunately he has glass over the tank to keep the cat out. I suggested replacing with a mesh cover to let the tank breathe and get some airflow.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Ca @ 500ppm isn't the problem here as long as it's balanced with a proper level of alkalinity.

Temps over 84F can be a problem.

It sounds like oxygen saturation is a problem- hopefully a skimmer is being used in conjunction with the sealed off top.

 

[pascal32]

caveat emptor- buyer beware. I hope you guys can work it out.
IMO:
there should be no reason a seller needs to find out the water parameters of a purchasers aquarium (or if they have an aquarium for that matter!)

it is worked out - he needs to get that tank straightened out!

I agree, still feel bad for the fish and corals which are suffering. things go wrong, fish and corals die - negligence is another story though.

yeah, he has a skimmer, though I don't believe it is anything you would entertain running

 

[solRNY]

Note: after this experience I might have to start asking people what their parameters are before selling!

sounds like the buyer is fairly new to the hobby, its very nice of you to continue helping and educating him, but seriously i dont think you should have to ask a buyer for parameters info or anything before a sale,

IMO: there should be no reason a seller needs to find out the water parameters of a purchasers aquarium (or if they have an aquarium for that matter!)

totally agree

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Kudos for helping a fellow reef keeper learn through their mistakes. Sounds like he is receptive of your help.

 

[tmz]

Salinity at 1.022 is fine for fish; can be deadly for invertebrates which are isotonic(can't osmoregulate) including coral.

Calcium over 500ppm is common and harmless.Wouldn't let it go much over 550 ppm since it might make it hard to keep alk high enough.

kh , ok at 10.4. Some of that, however, is the excess PO4. So the actual amount of carbonate alkalinity which is what corals use and is normally about 96.5% of total alkainity(typically about 130ppm) is somewhat t less than that .

2.5ppm PO4 is deadly to stony corals.>0.1ppm is usually considered a threshold for some concern. 0.25 ppm will inhibit calcification by stony corals (sps and lps).

NO3 at 160ppm is extremely high. Surface reef waters run at about 0.2 ppm. In a tank 20ppm or so is a threshold for concern with certain corals.

Tanks with some types of leathers, xenia , some types protopalythoa and palythoa, and discoma and rodactis can do ok with high NO3(ie 60ppm to 80ppm NO3 and PO4 as high as 0.5ppm) but even then nuisance algae will be an issue with increased light. I run a tank not integrated into my system that way but wouldn't put a scoly in it.


Tank needs a cleaning and a seriers of 25% water changes to drop some of the nutrient levels and correct the sg. Sg bumps shoul be less than .002 per 24 hours preferably .001per 24 hours.

Rock may need to be cured with some lanthanum chloride to get rid of PO4 it is likely holding via exposure to the high level.

Once some of this is fixed ,checking magnesium would be useful.

 

[Gravesj1s]

In my experience with a neglected tank for whatever reason ,I would just take it down.I went a long route of trying to turn a tank around once and if I had to do it over ,I'd take it down start over.

The cost of changing all that water ,testing ,scrubbing was not only slow going with results,but frustrating and costly compared to starting over.

 

[pascal32]

Salinity at 1.022 is fine for fish; can be deadly for invertebrates which are isotonic(can't osmoregulate) including coral.

Calcium over 500ppm is common and harmless.Wouldn't let it go much over 550 ppm since it might make it hard to keep alk high enough.

kh , ok at 10.4. Some of that, however, is the excess PO4. So the actual amount of carbonate alkalinity which is what corals use and is normally about 96.5% of total alkainity(typically about 130ppm) is somewhat t less than that .

2.5ppm PO4 is deadly to stony corals.>0.1ppm is usually considered a threshold for some concern. 0.25 ppm will inhibit calcification by stony corals (sps and lps).

NO3 at 160ppm is extremely high. Surface reef waters run at about 0.2 ppm. In a tank 20ppm or so is a threshold for concern with certain corals.

Tanks with some types of leathers, xenia , some types protopalythoa and palythoa, and discoma and rodactis can do ok with high NO3(ie 60ppm to 80ppm NO3 and PO4 as high as 0.5ppm) but even then nuisance algae will be an issue with increased light. I run a tank not integrated into my system that way but wouldn't put a scoly in it.


Tank needs a cleaning and a seriers of 25% water changes to drop some of the nutrient levels and correct the sg. Sg bumps shoul be less than .002 per 24 hours preferably .001per 24 hours.

Rock may need to be cured with some lanthanum chloride to get rid of PO4 it is likely holding via exposure to the high level.

Once some of this is fixed ,checking magnesium would be useful.

Thanks for the great response, educational to me. I passed it on to help this fellow in his journey.

In my experience with a neglected tank for whatever reason ,I would just take it down.I went a long route of trying to turn a tank around once and if I had to do it over ,I'd take it down start over.

The cost of changing all that water ,testing ,scrubbing was not only slow going with results,but frustrating and costly compared to starting over.

Interesting point. Seems easier to prevent it from getting that far.

I realized today that the 2.5 phosphate might be a low reading - my hanna only goes to 2.5!

 

[Gravesj1s]

LOL,yes, agreed easier to not let it get that far.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Blurry I just wanted to rephrase herea bit in case I came across as a wiseguy.Certainly not my intention.I just think it maybe worth considering housing the live stock seperate while the owner combats the chemistry issues might be worth looking at as a more practical approach.

High phosphate like that would or could mean the rock will leach it back into the water column for quite some time and just as fast as the water is being changed.Imo. The water changes and Gfo can be a costly way to approach it,Ime.
From what I've read in the LaCl thread the stuff works well but doesn't do anything for No3 so still that issue to contend with.I dont know at what ppm No3 would have a negative effect on a scoly but thereare studys done that suggest 10-20 ppm can have a negative affect on stony corals.

all in all,I was just passing along what I thought might be a practical approach.Best of luck to the guy with what ever route he or she goes.Your obviously a generous guy to help out like that.

 

[tmz]

Thanks for the great response, educational to me. I passed it on to help this fellow in his journey.



Interesting point. Seems easier to prevent it from getting that far.

I realized today that the 2.5 phosphate might be a low reading - my hanna only goes to 2.5!

You are welcome.

 

[pascal32]

Blurry I just wanted to rephrase herea bit in case I came across as a wiseguy.Certainly not my intention.I just think it maybe worth considering housing the live stock seperate while the owner combats the chemistry issues might be worth looking at as a more practical approach.

High phosphate like that would or could mean the rock will leach it back into the water column for quite some time and just as fast as the water is being changed.Imo. The water changes and Gfo can be a costly way to approach it,Ime.
From what I've read in the LaCl thread the stuff works well but doesn't do anything for No3 so still that issue to contend with.I dont know at what ppm No3 would have a negative effect on a scoly but thereare studys done that suggest 10-20 ppm can have a negative affect on stony corals.

all in all,I was just passing along what I thought might be a practical approach.Best of luck to the guy with what ever route he or she goes.Your obviously a generous guy to help out like that.

If it was my tank I would likely go this route. Unfortunately I don't see him going this route, the good thing is that SPS also aren't on his list. He just likes the tank with some Paly's and mushrooms.

The LaCL is new to me, great to have folks like you and the others who responded around to educate us all