What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore?

[IridescentLily]

I'm an old school fowlr person, who kept a tank like that in the late 80's/early 90's. I'm also a new reefkeeper because i have a new reef setup, and haven't had a tank since 1993.
I like all "types" of tank aesthetics.
I'm quoting a diving shop in Kona Hawaii who's credo is "all animals under the sea have a god given right to freedom".
And i have also been quite moved by Michelle Westmoreland's travels around the world, living with tribes who catch our hobby fish for a living.
I sometimes find myself contimplating about the fact that if she and her like found out about our hobby, they wouldn't initially have any positive things to say.
These two mindsets above are the reason why i can't judge someone elses tank, methodology, or even reef scape aesthetic.
I believe all types of tanks; ultra low nutrient tanks (uln), berlin method tanks, water from the pier, macroalgae tanks, volcano looking tanks, seahorse tank, mixed reefs, agressive fish tank, 90 gallon tanks with two yellow tangs in it, tanks with a bathroom built around them, etc...are all valid and invalid at the same time. It's a conundrum to me.
These animals give their lives for us to find out more about life under the sea.
And so imo the "method" therein, nor what level of mistakes made because of those methods, make no difference to me.

 

[r-balljunkie]

I was hosting a tank tour stop one year with my old club (shout out to Marsh-reef Houston) at my house. Along with the usual band of reef geeks peering, prodding and asking questions, someone brought their dad with them who was 100% Texan.

I'll never forget his words that day. As everyone was rattling off their pedigree of this and that, secrets to success......he says 'It's just a decorating contest' in his best Texas twang.
that was good for a chuckle.

I don't have access to all the LE, super rare stuff, I have to go and get my own corals, along with fish, live rock, sand, water....no pet stores on my island, no mail order, next day delivery.

I keep a natural reef tank in the truest sense BUT for 99% of the folks keeping a reef tank.....it's all open to what you THINK a reef should look like, in reality....it's not what the reef looks like.

Some of the vegetation you see on the reef wouldn't translate too well in a captive reef tank. Certain corals just aren't suitable for a captive reef tank.
There's a zillion different formation types for reefs too. IMO, if you have a single coral in the tank, it's a reef tank. How far you take is all about your 'decorating budget', and what your wife will let you get away with.

here's some examples of reef vegetation you just won't find in a captive reef tank.

My point of reference is the South Pacific ocean, yours may differ

 

[doctorgori]

^^^^AWESOME ...THANK YOU for sharing.....

I'll never forget his words that day. As everyone was rattling off their pedigree of this and that, secrets to success......he says 'It's just a decorating contest' in his best Texas twang.
that was good for a chuckle

...and yeah, every individual should be free to pursue whatever type of tank they want...my question is how much of what we are trying to achieve as hobbyist is being manipulated by commercial interest and if the thing is a mutually enabling "cycle" (hobby demands drive commercial interest; yet commercial products drive hobby demands)

I sometimes find myself contimplating about the fact that if she and her like found out about our hobby, they wouldn't initially have any positive things to say

like you I sometimes suffer from guilt at using "captive" things for my own amusement...its one thing to "consume" a animal to sustain yourself (thats just how this planet is run), but its another to slowly torture a animal for ones own observational amusment (which is exactly what we are doing, and why the whole "tang/tank size" crusade along with keeping "borderline hardy" critters has merit)

...AND this is where one can at least make some "moralistic" distinction between using these animals for "eye candy" and/or at least extracting some knowledge/educational value from thier "sacrifice" (which is "arguably" mankinds "mission" on this planet)

and IRONICALLY this "educational" angle is the attribute that is lost using "eco-friendly" dead rock with gaudy "ultra" corals propped up amongst them (how much knowledge can be gleemed from such a "restrictive" setup?)

....and I'm not on some "crusade" against using dead rock or buying these "designer" corals...what I am calling into question is the trend from diverse style reef tanks to "meageries" showcasing corals...not that one is better than the other, but most certainly from a consumption of wildlife standpoint, a more diverse tank does at least extract more educational value (if we are going to justify the consumption of "wild" products)

 

[IridescentLily]

^^^^AWESOME ...THANK YOU for sharing.....



...and yeah, every individual should be free to pursue whatever type of tank they want...my question is how much of what we are trying to achieve as hobbyist is being manipulated by commercial interest and if the thing is a mutually enabling "cycle" (hobby demands drive commercial interest; yet commercial products drive hobby demands)



like you I sometimes suffer from guilt at using "captive" things for my own amusement...its one thing to "consume" a animal to sustain yourself (thats just how this planet is run), but its another to slowly torture a animal for ones own observational amusment (which is exactly what we are doing, and why the whole "tang/tank size" crusade along with keeping "borderline hardy" critters has merit)

...AND this is where one can at least make some "moralistic" distinction between using these animals for "eye candy" and/or at least extracting some knowledge/educational value from thier "sacrifice" (which is "arguably" mankinds "mission" on this planet)

and IRONICALLY this "educational" angle is the attribute that is lost using "eco-friendly" dead rock with gaudy "ultra" corals propped up amongst them (how much knowledge can be gleemed from such a "restrictive" setup?)

....and I'm not on some "crusade" against using dead rock or buying these "designer" corals...what I am calling into question is the trend from diverse style reef tanks to "meageries" showcasing corals...not that one is better than the other, but most certainly from a consumption of wildlife standpoint, a more diverse tank does at least extract more educational value (if we are going to justify the consumption of "wild" products)

Ah. Absolutely. i agree, i see what you're saying about the eye candy mind set vs. education about them and enjoying the natural beauty of them. And i agree. i don't want to see that trend continue.
I do believe there are reefkeepers with more stylized approach to their reef who do indeed care about these animals as much as you or i. Those persons should be recognized for the ability to do both. I do agree about tiring of the ubiquitous blue sps dominant tank.
No offense meant to anyone. My only point in saying that is because this has somehow become entwined with RK because of this currently popular aesthetic.
I can assure you, as the person who has the final decision on totm nominations, i am new in this position and therefore have a desire to have more of an eclectic mix of tank styles be represented. For instance, why not a 55 gallon with just a hob overflow and canister filter, which contains vibrant, healthy corals?
Do we have to have a 300 gallon or above tank to have it nominated by folks as totm.
I digress, but yes, i do agree with you on the "name of the coral" stuff, and on the out of balance interest in certain types of reef tank husbandry methods.
We all need a healthy bit of perspective as with most things of this import.

 

[doctorgori]

^this....
As a native Clevelander I suffer from limited english skills and can't eloquently state my opinions as well; thanks for more or less reflecting my similar opinions....

but in distilled terms, yes this hobby is basically trending to a blue/green SPS dominated coral "showcase" free from any annoying pest or critters smaller than 2" and dull colored....

just look at the post calling for "dead rock"...I'm not sterotyping these hobbyist, but its an automatic they have ZERO interest in tunicates, sponges and the like and on the surface thier interest is in the larger "shiny things" this hobby has to offer... repeating myself but: sponges, worms and algaes don't make for impactful psychodelic TOTM macro photo shots, nor are they brag bait...

....and as I've already pointed out "dead rock" is a ecological catch 22: question being: is "dead rock" actually beneficial in the big picture from a "eco-green" centric standpoint? we "save the reef" at the expense of education & awareness

if this thing trends out; sk8r's sticky on "hitchhikers" will be rendered obsolete and what we will end up with will be tanks with the stoney coral equivelent of "glofish" & "balloon mollys"

 

[billsreef]

if this thing trends out; sk8r's sticky on "hitchhikers" will be rendered obsolete and what we will end up with will be tanks with the stoney coral equivelent of "glofish" & "balloon mollys"

It's starting already. Just look at the culls, er "designer", clownfish phenomena :sad: I can't imagine paying big bucks (or any bucks for that matter) for an all white "snowflake" clown that looks more like a silver molly ($1.49 at the LFS) than a clownfish.

 

[Jon_Hewett_85]

I completely agree with Dr. Gori on this one. Don't get me wrong, I like shiney things, but......there are limits. Very well said about glo-fish and balloon mollies. It may be only a matter of time until we see an ad for SUPERGLO! (TM) Corals. Genetically modified of course. Also, they are designed not to grow, so that you can't frag them w/o paying royalties.

With the new dead rock trend, I wonder when many of these hobbyists looked in their tank w/ a flashlight and said to themselves: Whoa, cool! *** is that? Thats wild!

 

[doctorgori]

It may be only a matter of time until we see an ad for SUPERGLO! (TM) Corals. Genetically modified of course. Also, they are designed not to grow, so that you can't frag them w/o paying royalties.

You shall now and forever henceforth be known amongst us hobbyist as "Reeferdomus" ... I'd bet my wife & my booze that no more accurate vsionary fortelling words have ever been spoken.... yes indeed, the "designer" SW "pets" are on thier way...

Just look at the culls, er "designer", clownfish phenomena

Funny you mention this; I recall visiting a Marine fish store around 1990 and noticing all the odd looking clowns that started showing up in tank raised fish back then...nobody charged a nickle more...

...and IridecentLily, I'd hate to think anyone for one second is thinking I'm pointing fingers at the TOTM program per se, all I'm saying is there is wide gulf between what is of "interesting value" and what is of "Aestetic value" ...and having a tank with a bunch of hydroids & peanut worms ain't goona win anyone any awards ....

...this trend towards "shiny things" isn't a conspiracy so much as its a void in recognition ...moreover small interesting critters have zero commercial value/incentive....

Too bad there isn't any "measurable" for having a balanced/diverse reef tank that leans toward "duplication" as opposed to our current trendy "minimalist" eastern art-deco warhal-ish interpretation of a underwater scence from the future

 

[jimmyj7090]

On a tangent, but related just as well;

Does anyone have any thoughts about how seeking to keep a system "ick free" might or might not fit into this discussion? How about "flatworm free"?

Not trying to argue for or against anything, just wondering where we think the line falls between keeping specific pests out vs. "our current trendy "minimalist" eastern art-deco warhal-ish interpretation of a underwater scence from the future " ?

*quote used because I liked it, not because I am arguing for or against it*

 

[Jon_Hewett_85]

I dunno about your wife, but I will take your booze. The writing is on the wall. Look at Glofish. They are geneticly modified zebra danios that have been patented and trademarked. The company prohibits breeding, selling, and any trading of their offspring! They even specify how the bag they go home in must be marked.

http://www.glofish.com/license.html

Is it really that far of a stretch to think that once a company thinks there are enough dollars involved to start experimenting with this on corals? Or clownfish?(IMO They'll be first. How many people would pay $$$$$ for a clownfish in a color of their choosing?) Maybe they will even tweak a gene that governs that the production of an enzyme required for calcification? The coral can't make enough on it's own so they sell you a food that contains it. If you don't buy their food, no new growth, and no frags.

I really hope I'm wrong about this. But it is possible. Beware.

 

[mussel and hate]

As a native Clevelander I suffer from limited english skills and can't eloquently state my opinions as well; thanks for more or less reflecting my similar opinions....

You seem eloquent and articulate to me, but what would I know I'm from Cleveland also :smokin:

I'm glad to see discussion on glofish and patented organisms. I dropped that bomb earlier hoping to stir the pot.

While I'm no fan of patents in general I am particularly dismayed that the U.S. patent office has the audacity to issue patents on life. This debate transcends our insignificant little hobby and frankly it terrifies me. The most discouraging aspect is that the general public hasn't the education in critical thinking and physical sciences necessary do deconstruct the flawed premises and blatant fallacies.

All one must do for an inkling of what is coming to the pet industry is to examine Monsanto's round up ready Frankenplants. The upside I guess is that if you have a patented G-mod organism you can probably ship it without a CITES permit since that combination of chromosomes won't have been shown to occur naturally. Of course these man-made-monsters will eventually find their way into the natural habitat at which point it's rabbits in Australia all over again.

We keep our reefs in a brave new world indeed.

 

[RubberFrog]

How do you folks feel about old ladies that keep rose gardens with their prize red blooms? Are they sellouts also?

 

[pbaldwin]

You kids get off my lawn

 

[mussel and hate]

How do you folks feel about old ladies that keep rose gardens with their prize red blooms? Are they sellouts also?

Ambivalent. I fancy the younger ladies.

 

[Jon_Hewett_85]

My issue isn't with people collecting "shiny things". They have their place. IMO more interest in the hobby is a good thing. When I got back into the hobby after being out for a time, I was blown away by how much more readily things were available. Everything from affordable skimmers, to AIO systems, to frags of every imaginable coral, all delivered right to your door. In the long run I am hoping that more interest = more experimentation = more learning. My issue is with the outright greed that often accompanies collection of "shiny things". People hyping "rare" and "LE" corals for obscene markups, intentionally preying on unsuspecting hobbyists. People that are trying to get rich quick and make a quick buck off of their fellow hobbyists.

Example: Joe Fragger buys some zoanthids at wholesale and chops the colony into tiny frags for re-sale. I wouldn't draw the line here, you know capitalism and all that. Where it gets sketchy is when he goes online as starts hyping them as super rare LE coral from a remote island in tonga that were personally blessed by a medicine man, when he likely bought it as Asst. colored Zoanthids. There is a difference between marketing a coral and just making $#!% up. Or even worse when he goes on some website, decides those tiny frags kindof look like the ones he saw on the internet and calls his the same thing for even more $$$.

 

[RubberFrog]

^ I agree with everything you just said 100%

I too am amazed at the advancement from the late 80s as well as how affordable equipment is.

 

[doctorgori]

How do you folks feel about old ladies that keep rose gardens with their prize red blooms? Are they sellouts also?

Roses are domesticated ... you want your corals that way?

but if you are making an analogy: reef tank = coral garden, then of course thats Ok ....
...heck there is a lot of side industry to gardening, and so it can also be with reef tanks and "ultra" this or that

But the ocean and its inhabitants encompass a heck of a lot more knowledge than a flower garden and its importance to the planet, even more so

I suppose in this hobby there is room for a lot of interpretations, but there is also a valid concern if one is watching the current trends

 

[RubberFrog]

I was making an analogy, but I was more asking the question than making a point with it.

I can appreciate that some folks want to study and learn from the reef. I think that is admirable even. For myself, I want to enjoy my reef as a source of relaxation. I don't want anything fake or over engineered, but I also don't want a bunch of brown coral and simulated reef trash. No sarcasm intended.

I will say that this thread has caused me to rethink my opinion, however I dont see myself changing the direction of my reef.

 

[doctorgori]

I will say that this thread has caused me to rethink my opinion, however I dont see myself changing the direction of my reef.

nothing but self reflection here either, even if it appears partially hypocritical...I got a semi-techie tank myself and personally tend to lean towards bright chartruese critters myself....

....does a tank crafted with coraline seeded dead rock and carefully stocked with "Coral-RX" pre dipped ultra LPS/Green acros/Green bay packer zoos; ... qualify as a reef tank?

I asked myself that question AFTER I obtained a bunch of dead rock...I realized what I was in essence doing was this:

....looks kinda like a fish tank no?

subsitute the glass shelves for rock, add ASW and basically I'm just "showcasing" my ultra coral pieces, especially if I remove every last lifeform that has no chance of impressing anyone

...you get so wrapped up in the thing its almost like "hydroponic Reeftanking" ...
...

 

[Jon_Hewett_85]

Who doesn't like bright colorful corals? The point is...If you like dead rock and LE corals...Go for it. If you like glass bottles and driftwood....go for it. Don't fall into the hype of the latest fad because it's the hot new thing on the internet. Figure out what you like, and go with it. I see a lot of reefers that get into the hobby with a lot of expensive gear and buy a bunch of LE corals, but eventually get bored with it after a year or two. The overall interest just isn't there. Just take a look at all of the tanks on craigslist.

Personally, I like to use as much of the most diversely populated live rock as possible, from as many sources as possible. The amount of life is simply astounding. I do not have a commercial clean up crew at all in the 40g, and only a few astrea's in the 20g. There are however tons of stomatella, pods, bristleworms, copepods, snails, starfish and huge numbers of other micro-flora and fauna, that seem to do the job quite well. Not to mention supplementing the feeding of your fish and corals.Take care of the tiny critters, and they'll take care of your tank. Sure you get a few pests, but anything not readily dealt with is pretty rare. If a have to zap a few aiptasias to get that, then it's worth it. And for the dead rock people, you can buy what I call "critter kits" with copepods, etc, the the biodiversity just isn't there and IMO it's just not as interesting