All Delight
New member
If youbrun gfo to.lower it use a little at a time. Lower it too fast could shock your sps.
What is the acceptable level of Phosphate in an SPS tank?
- Thread starter MarineGirl411
- Start date
If youbrun gfo to.lower it use a little at a time. Lower it too fast could shock your sps.
reefmutt
Active member
Pife thank goodness you mentioned this is a 6 year old thread. I forgot to look as I was reading all of those sort of scary, uninformed posts..
My po4 is currently .2 (elos high resolution test kit) been there for a good 6 months
Here is my Jason Fox flame when I added it about 2 months ago:
And here it is today:
Nitrates: 30-40 and phosphates.18-.22 the whole time.
Now, I DO intend to lower them eventually but I am not in a hurry. I have to do it extremely slowly and would rather do it with bacteria than gfo. I have not used gfo in many months. I find it yoyos the levels and I think this is the most important aspect of nutrients- not necessarily the actual levels but their stability.
Bxbe888, .09 is really not a concern at all. Don't blame the colour of your corals in high po4 because I doubt that is the cause.. not knowing anything about your system, I couldn't say what is the cause, however..
Every time things change in a reef, the corals may brown out a bit. Stability is key. Maturity of the system is important as well.. proper lighting, parameters etc these all play a role.
My po4 is currently .2 (elos high resolution test kit) been there for a good 6 months
Here is my Jason Fox flame when I added it about 2 months ago:
And here it is today:
Nitrates: 30-40 and phosphates.18-.22 the whole time.
Now, I DO intend to lower them eventually but I am not in a hurry. I have to do it extremely slowly and would rather do it with bacteria than gfo. I have not used gfo in many months. I find it yoyos the levels and I think this is the most important aspect of nutrients- not necessarily the actual levels but their stability.
Bxbe888, .09 is really not a concern at all. Don't blame the colour of your corals in high po4 because I doubt that is the cause.. not knowing anything about your system, I couldn't say what is the cause, however..
Every time things change in a reef, the corals may brown out a bit. Stability is key. Maturity of the system is important as well.. proper lighting, parameters etc these all play a role.
Stolireef
Active member
I never check phosphates. Rather, I use algae as my guide so long as my chaeto is growing and I have little to no algae in my display, I assume phosphates are where they need to be. I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately particularly on tanks that have been up more than a couple of years and that have great SPS results. Almost all of them have surprisingly high nutrients. Nitrates above 10 and phospates closing in on .1.
The other thing is that if you are growing algae anywhere in the tank, you don't have 0 phosphate or nitrates.
The other thing is that if you are growing algae anywhere in the tank, you don't have 0 phosphate or nitrates.
Denadai
New member
I have tons of chaeto in my refugium but sometimes po4 start to rise and I wouldn´t notice without hanna checker.
I don´t believe is possible to have healthy and colorful SPS with PO4 > 0.1 in the long run
Best Regards
reefmutt
Active member
This thread is always an eye opener..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953
Denadai
New member
I don´t believe in this thread
I have seen a lot of sps dying / not growing / brown in tanks with po4 > 0.1
This is a very easy test to do....2 tanks, 10 frags...everything the same but one tank run gfo to keep po4 =~ 0.02 and the other tank without gfo to raise po4 > 0.1
I can bet that the overall heathy / color will be much better if po4 =~0.02
Best Regards
reefmutt
Active member
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Without talking about nuisance algea, lower controlled nutrient levels along with proper coral nutrition is probably better than excess nutrients.. for no other reason than it is not natural to the corals, although, our aquariums are not particularly 'natural'..
However, I do believe that corals are very adaptable when given proper nutrition and stability. I believe that concentrating to, to much on lowering and controlling low nutrient levels can become dangerous.
Denadai, what do you mean by 'I don't believe in this thread'?
Do you mean you don't believe the thread is real, that it is fake somehow? Or, do you mean you just don't agree with Richard's theories about higher nutrient levels?
Agreed. One issue I had with that thread is there is a lot of opinions and not many facts. The dispute about where the 0.03 number came from and calling it arbitrary is just ignorant. Randy and many others have talked about it in their articles as being the number at which phosphate becomes limiting for algae growth. There are many citations available for this, as well as numbers around inhibition of calcification. Lets not go round in circles about already published science.
Piper27
I love bengals
Do you not agree with Rich or do you think his test numbers are made up? I am curious as to what you think for sure.
As to Rich's theory's, I think his tank is a one of a kind if his test numbers are right. In that I mean I don't think anyone should try to keep sps in levels that high for any reason. His system must have developed like that over time and things slowly aclimated to it. It's not healthy for anyone to set up a tank and say "I have a goal to have abnormally high po4 and nitrate in this tank. I don't believe there are many people at all I that can intentionally replicate what he has done if they tried too.
It would also be nice to see some macro shots of his corals. I mean it would help prove his point to show the corals in pictures more focused and detailed than a front tank shot.
I will stick to my beliefs that .03 and lower is best for keeping good sps colors and growth with little issues.
reefmutt
Active member
Denadai, do you know Richard Ross is a marine biologist at The California Acadamy of Sciences? He is in charge of one of the largest captive reef aquariums in the world, at the Steinhart Aquarium.
I highly doubt he is getting his numbers wrong..
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post..
This is not to say that what he is doing with his own personal aquarium is the absolute right thing to do.. I doubt even he would say that, but to discount it as false or wrong is irresponsible.
What he is doing is certainly not the accepted norm and we don't see the typical accelerated growth in his tank that we often see in low nutrient tanks but it certainly is thriving..
Going back to the original intent of this thread.. I would agree that a good target for p is somewhere between .03 and .1. That is certainly my experience as it is for most but to doggedly chase those numbers without paying close attention the the health of the tank can lead new reefers to kill lots of corals..
On the other hand, ignoring the levels and letting them get extremely high may lead the the same bad result.
So, yes there is probably a range in which most tanks will thrive but clearly there are thriving tanks that fall outside of that range.
Denadai
New member
I have a lot of experience with SPS
When I buy a new brown SPS the water in the store has po4 > 0.08 and no3 > 5 ppm
My reef now : no3 =~ 1 ppm and Po4 =~ 0.02 ppm
Why always the SPS in the store are brown and when I put in my tank after 30 days the corals become red, pink, green ??? Why ??
Also I had experience with my own tanks....always when my no3 and po4 rises corals get brown, suffer with stn , rtn or even die. Why ?
Why the best aquariums in the world has low po4 and no3 ?
I would love to not concern about po4 and no3 anymore.
I would like to see any experiment with 4 or 5 frags....is very simple to do and we can debate about that. Two tanks, the same frags, one po4>0.2 and the other po4 =~0.02. Who will test for us ?
I never saw a SPS tank looks good in the long run with high po4.
Reef aquarium is science...if one tank thrive with high po4 the others also must thrive.
Best Regards
When I buy a new brown SPS the water in the store has po4 > 0.08 and no3 > 5 ppm
My reef now : no3 =~ 1 ppm and Po4 =~ 0.02 ppm
Why always the SPS in the store are brown and when I put in my tank after 30 days the corals become red, pink, green ??? Why ??
Also I had experience with my own tanks....always when my no3 and po4 rises corals get brown, suffer with stn , rtn or even die. Why ?
Why the best aquariums in the world has low po4 and no3 ?
I would love to not concern about po4 and no3 anymore.
I would like to see any experiment with 4 or 5 frags....is very simple to do and we can debate about that. Two tanks, the same frags, one po4>0.2 and the other po4 =~0.02. Who will test for us ?
I never saw a SPS tank looks good in the long run with high po4.
Reef aquarium is science...if one tank thrive with high po4 the others also must thrive.
Best Regards
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slavetonet
New member
I can turn any brown sps piece from LFS in about 2 weeks to somewhat their original colours.
PO4 and NO3 play a part in it as long as it stays within the NO3 is between 0.2ppm to 5.0ppm and PO4 is between 0.01 ppm to 0.05ppm.
I use trace elements and amino / vitamins to do my colours of my sps.
I don't chase numbers as much as I used to, as it just works now.
Regards,
Kevin
PO4 and NO3 play a part in it as long as it stays within the NO3 is between 0.2ppm to 5.0ppm and PO4 is between 0.01 ppm to 0.05ppm.
I use trace elements and amino / vitamins to do my colours of my sps.
I don't chase numbers as much as I used to, as it just works now.
Regards,
Kevin
I read Rich's article he published in 2014 I believe, and it was an interesting read. There's definitely something else at play in these mature tanks that run elevated levels. Sanjay's is similar.
I have no developed opinion yet, only a few hypotheses. We don't really know as much as we think we know, that's for sure. It would definitely appear that something is preventing algae from taking over in these tanks. Could be iron, could be something else.
The relationship between brown corals and nutrients appears to be very complex and could have something to do with levels of organic nutrients, light and many, many other factors. I hope we can develop a better understanding of this going forward. I am currently under the impression that you want inorganics low and potentially higher organics, but even that I'm unsure of.
I still agree with Denadai. The high nutrient, successful SPS tanks are much less common than lower ones. The ones I'm aware of are also very mature tanks, and perhaps have settled into balance. (Whatever that means)
I have no developed opinion yet, only a few hypotheses. We don't really know as much as we think we know, that's for sure. It would definitely appear that something is preventing algae from taking over in these tanks. Could be iron, could be something else.
The relationship between brown corals and nutrients appears to be very complex and could have something to do with levels of organic nutrients, light and many, many other factors. I hope we can develop a better understanding of this going forward. I am currently under the impression that you want inorganics low and potentially higher organics, but even that I'm unsure of.
I still agree with Denadai. The high nutrient, successful SPS tanks are much less common than lower ones. The ones I'm aware of are also very mature tanks, and perhaps have settled into balance. (Whatever that means)
markalot
...
Some plant species need acidic soil to grow well, but over the years breeders have found certain varieties of those same species that, for whatever reason, can survive in conditions others can't. These varieties have been bred for years and sold to people well outside the native range of the plant. People have been breeding plants a LOT longer than corals and I'm sure folks willing to experiment had to put up with a lot of doubters over the years.
I believe it's important to think about this when making blanket statements about corals, rather than doubting someones data. There may in fact be many varieties of acros that cannot tolerate high PO4, I don't doubt it for a second, but there are also varieties that seem to do well, grow well, and even color well. Maybe not the intense coloration one might expect from more natural nutrient levels but we seem to have enough data to show that higher nutrients may not be the death sentence so many of us thought it was.
Stability of whatever the levels (PO4, NO3, KH, etc) appears to be THE most important quality of a healthy tank (some mor eimportant than others) and evidence is building that given rock solid stability many other 'bad' params are not nearly as important.
I believe it's important to think about this when making blanket statements about corals, rather than doubting someones data. There may in fact be many varieties of acros that cannot tolerate high PO4, I don't doubt it for a second, but there are also varieties that seem to do well, grow well, and even color well. Maybe not the intense coloration one might expect from more natural nutrient levels but we seem to have enough data to show that higher nutrients may not be the death sentence so many of us thought it was.
Stability of whatever the levels (PO4, NO3, KH, etc) appears to be THE most important quality of a healthy tank (some mor eimportant than others) and evidence is building that given rock solid stability many other 'bad' params are not nearly as important.
Denadai
New member
My nano was the proof for me that stability is not so important as people think
My nano had huge oscillation in temperature when I did water changes, daily oscillation in alk and ca and corals was good, but no3 and po4 was close zero.
Of course some SPS can thrive in high po4 condition, but I look for a lot of SPS and not the ones that can survive in high po4 condition.
For me a mature tank ( old tank ) is more important than stability
Best Regards
