When to begin antibiotic treatment, s.gig?

[M Woodhill]

He does not look great but far from non savable. Make sure you temp is at least 80 degree. It OK if he release zooxanthallae but if he start to slough his inner tissue, likely he is a goner.
Good luck with him.

I don't know if this makes sense but to my experiences, it's better--if possible--to treat the DT with antibiotics.

I say so based on what I've learned from my treatment of the ritteri. It was doin very fine indeed after few days in quarantine but soon doomed after bein put back into the DT. I guess there musta been somethin in DT that gotta be treated with antibiotics.

 

[OrionN]

I don't think that we should treat our DT with antibiotic. It is so delicate and so much of the biological process depends on bacterial. Put antibiotic in it and you really can have long lasting, even permanent unintentional effect.
In a healthy tank, the microprobes’ keep each other in check. Antibiotic can really tip the balance in some direction that is possible totally unrecoverable.

In treatment tank, bacterial can be suppressed but not eliminate. Put into the DT, the antibiotic removed, if the anemone not completely treated, the bacterial in the absent of the antibiotic will multiply and growing again cause the anemone to be sick again. It is possible but unlikely that the pathogen can still be in the tank and re-infected the anemone again

 

[D-Nak]

The assumption here is that the antibiotics are helping an ailment that the gig has. However, we don't really know what the problem is. In the past, I've hypothesized that in transport or in times of prolonged darkness, the zoox within the gig dies and this dead zoox begins to decay inside the gig. My guess is that the gig holds onto the zoox until its exposed to light, at which time is begins to expel it. The reason I think it holds onto it is because it's usually in a pellet form, and this takes time to develop. Dead zoox that is expelled usually has a stringy appearance.

The reason I mention this is because you're experiencing exactly the same as what I've experienced with my sick gig, yet I didn't QT my gig and treat with antibiotics. In other words, we can't necessarily blame the treatment for the demise of the gig. However, we all know that without treatment a gig in the state yours is in now will certainly die within a couple of weeks. In the last photo I see what I describe as the "puffy pancake" where instead of having deep folds, the gig is flat, and though it is expanded it appears as if it is balding and bleaching due to the gig stretching the oral disk. I only see this appearance with sick gigs.

Here are a few photos of the sick gig that I had:

On a "good" day (notice the balding):

<img src="http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m616/dnak1200/IMG_0435_zps4307202b.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/>

"Puffy pancake" with siphonoglyphs exposed (notice that the tentacles at the edge of the disk are deflated):

Partially deflated (and unable to hold itself upright):

Ironically, here's a photo of the gig I have now (this is the photo of what it looked like when I picked it up):

And what it looks like now:

My suggestion is to continue treatment, and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Slickcg33]

40 hours in QT 1/10/13 @ 5pm:

Observations:

I woke up today to a "heather" looking anemone. The anemone appears to be responding very well when the light turns on over the tank. I have a Kessil a150 Ocean Blue 10k LED pendant over the QT tank.

The anemone was Not deflated today when I woke up. The anemone had defined folds and was holding up well against the current. The anemone's mouth was still open but not gaping like it was last night. The anemone is still routinely releasing small amounts of zoa.

I conducted a 5 gal water change, replacing 5 gal from QT with 5 gal from DT. If you remember yesterday when I did the water change the anemone did not respond well and deflated immediately. My hypothesis was that it was a combination of shutting the lights off, immediately conducting a water change and adding the antibiotics all at once. Keeping that in mind I kept the lights on today during the water change and waited one hour after water change before shutting off the lights and adding the antibiotics. Doing it with this procedure the anemone did NOT deflate during or immediately after the water change today.

One thing I've noticed is when I shut off the lights, the anemone tentacles become very stringy and not full and healthy looking in contrast as when the lights are on. I haven't noticed that in past Gig's I've kept, but perhaps I just wasn't paying attention....

Photos attached

Lights on before water change.

Lights on after water change

Lights off and antibiotics added to the QT

 

[OrionN]

He is looking much better. I am keeping my fingers cross for you.

 

[Slickcg33]

53 hours in QT:

Observations:

Mostly the same, still inflated, still mouth open, still expelling zoa.

Only thing really new to report is that I believe the anemone has made it 24 hours without deflating, which is a first since its been in my care. I say I "believe" because there are about 8 hours every morning which I don't get to observe the anemone.

Off to bed, pics attached:

 

[M Woodhill]

Time for Marine Biologist

Time for Marine Biologist

I guess its time for those marine biologists to take some solid and productive researches into those cute critters

They can't just simply throw out those words like stress, bad shipper, best leave em in the sea....

I scuba'd in some reefs. in some areas mag grows just like pests, really, infests an entire reef. and you even unnecessarily scuba to c gigs. i found a few just ashore, fully exposed to the air and heat.

there r certainly somethin that is goin wrong in the chain from where they r collected to where they r purchased. thinkin about sps, like 10 yrs ago no one agreed they could be maintained in home aquariums, right? Scientists really have done a lot on that.

just coz nem is usually cheaper and easier to collect doesnt mean it needs no thorough scientific research. and they now have clam farm, sps farm, why not set up some nem farms?

 

[Slickcg33]

70ish hours in QT 1/12/2013 @ 1202am.

Observations:

Today is a bit of a late post but all seems to be the same. Nothing new really to report except the anemone is going on 2 days now without an observed deflation.

I added and turned on two small led blue moonlights for the tank for when the main light is off.

Pics attached:

Lights on, before water change and new antibiotics

Lights off, POST water change and new antibiotics added.

 

[OrionN]

I think he look rather good. In deflation is really good news.

 

[Slickcg33]

4 days in QT:

Observations:

Nothing new really to report. The anemones mouth does appear to SLOWLY be closing... might just be my imagination. The anemone hasn't deflated going on 3 days now...

I don't know when I'm going to take it out of QT or when I will start to reduce antibiotics dosage... I guess I will just play it by ear...

Pics:

After water change with Lights on:

Antibiotics added lights out:

 

[OrionN]

Mouth of new Gigantea tend to stay larger than other anemones like Haddoni and Magnifica for months. Both of my Gigantea mouth stay large for at least 2 months when I first added to my tank.
I would recommend to treat him for at least 5 days. You can do water change without medication for minimal of 3 days or so. If he stay good then transfer him back to the DT.

 

[Reef1589]

its looking good, and yea i agree with minh its something with S. Gig's they tend to open their mouths from time to time.. (all of mine do it, still hold a firm mouth and all but will open from time to time)

definantly dont pull it out of treatment too soon, keep running the 250mg dosage and after a couple days just lower the dosage for a couple days, then slowly change it over to Tank water.. i would try to leave it in treatment tank with nothing but tank water for atleast 5-7 days... to see how it responds

imo try not to rush anything in the treatment process, that could be a big mistake but its looking good so far and your on the right track, im pulling for this one as blue ones are gorgeous

 

[Slickcg33]

5 days in QT

Observations:

Negatives:
The anemone is still expelling small amounts of zoa, and the mouth is still open. Additionally the anemone is still not even the least bit sticky to the touch...

Positives:
The anemone is going on 4 days now without an observed deflation. The anemone is looking much "healthier". Tentacles are slowly elongating and the folds are becoming more defined.

Tonight is going to be the last night of full dose of the cipro. I'm going to start half dose tomorrow at 125mg for the 10 gal tank.

Pics attached:

Lights on after water change:

Lights off, after antibiotics added:

 

[OrionN]

He looks good.
As a doctor, my advice is not going for 1/2 dose treatment. You either threat or not treat. Given 1/2 dose, all you do is to select for bacterial that will be resistant to the antibiotic.

Let say there are 5000 bacterias all are sensitive to the medication at full dose and will be kill. 1% developed some resistant and will be able to survive 1/2 dose. Given 1/2 dose 99% of the bacterial will be wipe out and the animal (anemone in this case) will improve. However that 1% will start growing. The anemone will get better than relapse. Pretty soon you will end up with 5000 bacterial all with partial resistant to the antibiotic. 1% of which would be resistant to full dose mediation. So as the anemone get worst, you go back to full dose, but then it will improve a little then relapse. This time it will not response to further treatment. This is just a simplistic explanation of why one should not partially treat an infection. It does not take into account our immune system. Often just partially inhibit the bacterial and our immune system will do the rest.

This is the reason why all our TB, HIV, Multi-drug resistant bacterial strains developed. Either treat or not treat. 1/2 dose will not help but sometime can cause a lot of harm.

 

[Slickcg33]

He looks good.
As a doctor, my advice is not going for 1/2 dose treatment. You either threat or not treat. Given 1/2 dose, all you do is to select for bacterial that will be resistant to the antibiotic.

Let say there are 5000 bacterias all are sensitive to the medication at full dose and will be kill. 1% developed some resistant and will be able to survive 1/2 dose. Given 1/2 dose 99% of the bacterial will be wipe out and the animal (anemone in this case) will improve. However that 1% will start growing. The anemone will get better than relapse. Pretty soon you will end up with 5000 bacterial all with partial resistant to the antibiotic. 1% of which would be resistant to full dose mediation. So as the anemone get worst, you go back to full dose, but then it will improve a little then relapse. This time it will not response to further treatment. This is just a simplistic explanation of why one should not partially treat an infection. It does not take into account our immune system. Often just partially inhibit the bacterial and our immune system will do the rest.

This is the reason why all our TB, HIV, Multi-drug resistant bacterial strains developed. Either treat or not treat. 1/2 dose will not help but sometime can cause a lot of harm.

That makes sense, however you stated in previous post in different threads that light eliminates the amount of antibacteria dosage in the water. Using that theory, when the lights turn on for the tank daily wouldn't it "reduce" the amount of antibacterial treatment in the water and therefor creating the same scenario you presented? Less dose in the water for the "bad" bacteria to adapt to?

 

[OrionN]

But you dose the mediation daily. Right after the dose you have a peak level, as the light degrade the antibiotic, the level come down to a though level at the end of the day. If you 1/2 the dose, then all the level will be only 1/2 of the full dose. It may or may not work.
We know that the full dose does not cause problem for the anemone, and seem to help with the infection, why treat it at 1/2 dose.

You may ask, why not use 500 mg/10 gal? We don't know if there is going to be any problem with the anemone at this does. It may harm the anemone at this higher does. All mediation have a toxic level. Get to this level, and it will cause damage to the body of our patient.

 

[Slickcg33]

6 Days in QT:

Observations:

Today will be the first day in QT without Antibiotics. I conducted a water change and re-directed the power head to create more direct flow on the anemone to see how it would hold up to the current. The anemone is ridged and holding fine against direct flow of the power head:

Pics attached after water change:

Short video:

 

[Reef1589]

Lookin Good

 

[D-Nak]

Looks really good -- I can see that the tentacles are getting longer -- a very good sign. Keep up the good work.

 

[OrionN]

I think it look great also. 3-5 days without antibiotic and if he do OK then you can get him back to DT.