Where is the "Animal Cruelty" line crossed?

[ClownReef®]

I was doing some browsing and cant help but notice some VERY effortless setups. Dirty, no room for the fish to swim, coral/clams were it is obvious they wont thrive.

So, where is the animal cruelty line reached? You see systems where the owners make the effort to be as clean as possible. They try to give their fish/inverts a stable and clean place to live. Is this the same as stuffing 6 cats in a shoe box?..

Id like to hear opinions..

Thanks!

 

[A.T.T.R]

i have a reef tank where the ro unit failed..
i was setting up frag tanks at teh time so i just moved over the corals ( except and acan a chalice and some frogspawns)

the tank is now covered with algae. ( calurpa mostly... dunno how it got in there LMAO) havent fed my fish in almost 6 months
guess what.. healthiest live stock you ever seen in that tank including the corals ( even the frogspawn that gets almost no light)

cleaner isnt always better.

150 with 770 watts of vho lighting nad 200 ish lbs of LR and ~6 inch sand bed


( pulled out about 10 lbs of calurpa yesterday.. gonna try and make it a display again)

 

[samtheman]

If you eat fish, you can answer your own question.

 

[Simran]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12389761#post12389761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
If you eat fish, you can answer your own question.

Fish are our friends not food

 

[iron coral]

hey this crap about animal cruelty is rather pathetic. if you want to talk about animal cruelty then who speaks for the rodents in our streets are they not animals too they get poisoned and have traps setup just for them. what about all these insects that are out there, are they not animals too and deserve to live? but we treat our crops with all kinds of insectacides to kill them. if you want to talk about animal cruelty then don't be biased to only those that are cute. where are the advocates for rates and fleas and mosquitoes and leachs and wasps and ticks and so many more "pests". if you want to talk about animal cruelty talk for all animals or don't talk about it at all.

 

[chewie]

SAVE THE AIPTASIA!

 

[iron coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12432647#post12432647 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
SAVE THE AIPTASIA!

lol, is it not true what i said. look at the most common method, or at least that i know, to kill aiptasia KALK PASTE that is extremely inhuman. think about it slowly disolving it while its alive. i have no pity for them because they kill my valuable corals. what i was trying to say is that all these animal cruelty guys need to stop complaining when the "cute" animals get done in cuz they will never defend pests so they need to shut up altogether you cant be biased about who you support all animals or none at all.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12441591#post12441591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
lol, is it not true what i said. look at the most common method, or at least that i know, to kill aiptasia KALK PASTE that is extremely inhuman. think about it slowly disolving it while its alive. i have no pity for them because they kill my valuable corals. what i was trying to say is that all these animal cruelty guys need to stop complaining when the "cute" animals get done in cuz they will never defend pests so they need to shut up altogether you cant be biased about who you support all animals or none at all.

Come on man, use your brain. You don't see any flaw in that argument?

 

[iron coral]

if you see a flaw please point it out. i never said i'm agianst animal cruelty.

i said that people who complain about animal cruelty shouldn't take sides on which animals to proect or they should just shut up altogether you understand now?

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12448119#post12448119 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
if you see a flaw please point it out. i never said i'm agianst animal cruelty.

i said that people who complain about animal cruelty shouldn't take sides on which animals to proect or they should just shut up altogether you understand now?

I'm going to wade through your grammar and assume you mean that you are against animal cruelty. Anyway, no I don't understand. You're trying to equate roaches with dolphins, or maybe even humans. I could be wrong, but I don't think you care too much about the welfare of insects and street rats; and unless you're a total psychopath, you wouldn't treat roaches and humans the same way. Am I right? Then why are you trying to tell people not to classify the "value" of organisms? Is it not a judgment call that needs to be made by each person? I'm just saying that you need to be a little more flexible than your "shut up if you defend organism 'a' without mentioning organism 'b' ". I can defend 3 tangs in a 40 gallon tank without mentioning the plight of roaches, just as I can defend your humane treatment without mentioning the tangs.

Do you understand now?

 

[Megalodon]

IMO, this all depends on a creatures' intelligence. I believe that the more intelligent an animal is, the more developed their brain and central nervous system is, the more they generally have the ability to experience and realize suffering, both physical and psychological.

Insects have tiny brains and practically have no thought process. If they are suffering, I doubt they'd realize it much. Instinct would control almost everything. That doesn’t mean it’s OK to torture them, but I certainly don’t lose any sleep over it. Things like corals and anemones, I believe it’s impossible to be cruel to them. (There is however the ethics surrounding the preservation of wild-caught specimens and the resulting impact on the environment.)

Fish have larger brains than bugs. I don't think it's OK to be cruel to them if you can avoid it. If you eat fish, make sure they're killed quickly. If you keep fish, do your best to care for them. If you have an accident, it’s just that, an accident, and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over it. But people who purposely don’t care and mistreat their fish should be ashamed, whether they’re vegetarians or not.

Mammals I think we should treat them well. Cruelty to mammals is immoral, IMO, and that’s why I eat only SPCA-approved meat. Even within mammals there are varying degrees of intelligence, from rodents to cats to monkeys to humans. Humans, the most intelligent animal of them all, we should treat the best. A human can suffer in a way a mouse never could.

So basically I put all animals on a sliding scale.. It's not based on how cute they are.

Another determining factor of when cruelty crosses the line is how justified it is. Is the animal for food? Is it for self-defense? Is it an accident? Do you have any choice? If you hit a cat a cat with your car, that’s not cruel… it’s an accident. However, if you leave the cat there to slowly die and suffer, then you cross the line, to be sure. Another example… eating animals for food in itself isn’t cruel assuming they’re killed quickly. Being unreasonably cruel to the animal before slaughtering it for food, however, is just plain wrong.

It's a complicated subject with many determining factors. It's not as black-and-white as some people think. If it is black-and-white then humans are animals too, so killing a person is just as bad as stepping on an ant, and we all know that's not true.

 

[Megalodon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12448119#post12448119 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
if you see a flaw please point it out. i never said i'm agianst animal cruelty.

i said that people who complain about animal cruelty shouldn't take sides on which animals to proect or they should just shut up altogether you understand now?

Your posts in this thread are full of flaws. Read my last post.

 

[mandynm]

Agreed with Megalodon.

Except I tend to have more compassion for my furry friends/fish than a far majority of humans due to many reasons.

 

[Megalodon]

I don't know how so many "?'s" got into my post. I wrote it in Word and then copy and pasted it, which usually works without a glitch.

Thanks Mandy.

 

[Bradly88]

At the end of the day killing animals(no matter what animal it is) is not a bad thing if it is what is truly needed and if it is done humanely! however putting a 5" fish in a 20gal and watching it swimming around and around in circles till it collapses and dies of cardiac failure, in my eyes(and im sure in many others) is CRUEL!

Where I think the whole problem starts is that in this hobby there are alot of people who start up thinking that they are the "know all and be all" of everything and blatantly disregard the guide lines and does and donts that so many experienced hobbyists have set forth over many years of being in this hobby! And what makes me laugh is that 9/10 times when people try to correct them their reply is "dont worry it will be fine"! and what do you know...2 or so weeks later everything is not so glamorous!

So come now guys it doesnt require a rocket scientist to do this right..just some common sense! If everybody did the research, reading and had the right mind set before starting up in this hobby we wouldnt have to start these types of threads!

 

[iron coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12450635#post12450635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
[B You're trying to equate roaches with dolphins, or maybe even humans. [/B]

you are rather short minded if can say so. i was never comparing animals to humans. show how little you can process to begin with.

lets put it in terms of peoples rights. say that there is somebody trying to help a group of people. lets say group A and group B are both lacking in rights. they live in the same country. sh!t lets get as specific as the same city. if equal rights activist R protests only for group A but continues to put down group B then that person should stop trying to help group A if they continue to put down group B. why? well lets look at it a bit closer. this activist R is supposed to be for human rights but mistreats group B so then we are left with a contradiction. how then can R fight for one side and hate the other just stop it.

are you now understanding what i'm saying? and plus lets look at the phras "Animal Cruelty" it refers to all animals not just the retty ones, not just the smart ones, not just the mammals it refers to ALL animals and yes that includes insects even though we hate them.

so the message for today is "if you are trying to protest dolphins dying in fish nets then don't eat tuna." don't be on both sides of the arguement at once. or is it that you people don't see that all animals are entitled to equal treatment. so this arguement of animal cruelty is rather a person to person issue. where one might think that harvesting honey from bee's is cruel while another might think not and then you are arguing because there are no truely set standards of "animal treatment. can any of you process beyond your own view point to try and understand what others are saying?

oh just to let you know kid i know my grammer is bad so shove off.

 

[iron coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12466049#post12466049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bradly88
So come now guys it doesnt require a rocket scientist to do this right..just some common sense! If everybody did the research, reading and had the right mind set before starting up in this hobby we wouldnt have to start these types of threads!

fine point you make there about the thread thing but mainly about people doing research first before taking up a obby that erquires to take care of another living organism. whether it be bird keeping fish keeping or gardening people need to learn to study a topic before jumping into it thinking they can learn from "experience"

 

[dc]

Iron coral, you need to step away from this thread if you can't discuss this like an adult.

 

[iron coral]

the ones that cant discuss a topic are those who start to point out flaws in peoples grammer.

 

[Megalodon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12481737#post12481737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iron coral
the ones that cant discuss a topic are those who start to point out flaws in peoples grammer.

It's "grammar."

Sorry, I couldn't resist.