Where's Matt been lately?

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Having been slapped on the hand before for supposedly selling snails I had been collecting (Cerith snails, in TN nonetheless :rolleyes: ) I know what Matt's feeling right about now.

I think there have been some good suggestions made about revising some portions of the do's and dont's in the selling forum, but for some reason the reaction seems to be "well, we were gonna, but then you made us annoyed, so we're not". Doesn't seem like a good/adult approach to me, but I'm not a mod (here, anyway, I do mod other sites).

If anyone wants to get in touch with Matt, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to hear from you. Shoot me a PM and I'll pass your email along to him. His breeding updates are still available via email. ;)
 
Brian, what exactly is getting worse? This was the first post I'd made on the subject.

I said I'm not a mod, I can't change or do anything really, so that call is up to you guys. I've seen the exchanges back and forth with Matt as well. Nobody apparently wants to "give" on the issue. So it's a stalemate. I guess I just don't see the purpose...you're losing a valuable contributor to the site. But again, your call, I won't bother chiming in any more on this topic.
 
I mod a couple of forums myself, and participate in a few others. It's a difficult and mostly thankless job. (and usually the pay sucks)

There is one topic that I think some input from the community could really help you guys out though:

Where do you draw the line between hobbyist and commercial venture, with regard to the website.

I gave it a bunch of thought last night.. because this is not an easy thing to do by any means. IMO it's a bad idea to leave it up to individual moderators to make an arbitrary decision. This thing that happened with Matt is an example of why - any mod who reads this section on a regular basis, and is familiar with his posts would never have considered him to be a commercial venture by any stretch of the imagination. However, to someone not familiar with Matt, or fishbreeding in general, I can fully understand that a guy posting wanting to sell 50 or 60 fish that he has breed himself would appear to be some kind of commercial outift.

I have seen this exact same mistake made with other community members, and I have seen the same result.

If the rule were more black and white, it would be much easier for the mods to enforce, and much easier for the hobbyist to avoid crossing the line accidently.

So I gave it some more thought...

First, IMO the rule for what is commercial and what is hobby should be specific to each type of thing that can be sold on RC. ie - it is tough to compare a hobby fragger to a breeder to a guy who maybe DIY's a sump or skimmer every couple months. The standard should be different for each one.

I think the easiest thing to do would be to simply establish a monthly monetary limit by category, below the monetary limit users are considered hobbyists, above it they are considered commercial opperations. Then apply the limit to each category, and review it periodically to insure that it's still applicable.

Since RC requires pricing information in each selling post, this becomes a simple, clear cut, black and white situation for the would be sellers and the moderators. Certainly, a commercial operation might try to sneak in say $200 worth of captive breed fish, but then again, most commercial operations aren't going to be interested in wasting too much time with such small amounts. It protects the sponsors of RC, and still allows the hobbyist a place to help offset part of the cost of their hobby, or maybe swing a new upgrade.

**Edit**
I don't know if it was clear, but I'm talking about a monthly monetary limit - ie.. A fish breeder is allowed to sell $200/month of fish, after that he is considered commercial... or something along those lines. Nice and easy for a mod to monitor, nice and easy for a would be seller to understand.
 
While it may appear decisions are "arbitrary", that is the nature of thousands of posts a week. Some may come to our attention, most do not. Additionally, "individual mods" do not make the decision. All questionable posts are reviewed by the moderator group. It is not uncommon for a thread to be pulled and then replaced after further review of facts and circumstances.

As for the line being "clear", that is almost impossible, as has been mentioned previously. The basic premise is if you buy/raise something for the purpose of reselling it, you will be viewed as commercial unless shown otherwise. It doesn't really matter how much money you are making or whether you show a profit. That really isn't going to change. The main area of dispute is how breeders fall into this category. Be assured that if a breeder is told it is ok to breed fish for resale, all the "fraggers" will complain of favoritism. That is why this issue needs some time to be considered. It won't happen overnight.

Also, to re-emphasize the point, no breeder has ever been removed for posting a selling thread.
 
To lend another opinion -

Yes, the Staff and Mods are well aware of the difficulties involved in fairly enforcing a commercial policy.

As Bill mentioned, don't think the coral fraggers "get away" with it all and fish breeders are picked on. We actually enforce the same rules on both. The difficultly lies in determining when someone has "crossed the line" from hobby to commercial. Many of today's best-known online shops started out in a garage as a "hobby."

So, when did they cross over into commercial? For us, it's all about trying to determine intent. It's not about breaking even, just recouping your costs, or making money. It's about creating something with the specific intent that it be sold. Whether it's putting together a LED lighting board, doing mods on maxijets, fragging corals and growing them out, or breeding fish, if it's being done with the intent to distribute them here, then that's commercial.

Okay, how does one determine "intent?" We don't have a crystal ball or mind-reading powers, so we have to really judge things objectively. People who have "too many" of a certain coral, or too many varieties (especially if the variety is ever changing), people who offer to "get something" if someone doesn't see what they like are pretty obvious. People who set up websites to take orders, accept credit cards, create email and waiting lists for their corals also are pretty cut and dry. Ordering a lot (or many) of one thing with the intent to sell some of it to recoup costs is also prohibited (why was the extra purchased - to sell here, so it's commercial). As is collecting livestock to sell.

But some areas of "intent" are more difficult. Selling a few fish the first time you breed them wouldn't be commercial. But what about the second time, or the third. When does it stop being a "can I do it" experiment, and become a "hey, I can make a little extra money on this?" It's a grey area, and one we struggle with daily. We are always willing to have discussions in this area (provided they are polite), but once we have made a decision (as a group, we don't make decisions in a vacuum), the member needs to respect that decision (if they don't, that's when loss of posting privileges rears its ugly head).

And nearly every person we identify as commercial claims to have only the best interests of the hobby and other hobbyists at heart. Hey, they're only trying to get a good deal for their fellow saltwater geeks, what could possibly be wrong with that? Again, it's not the price, nor the balance sheet (making money versus not) that makes it commercial - it's the intent.

So, back to intent - dedicated grow out systems, multiple frags and frag racks help establish this intent with the coral crowd. It's not just pruning your corals and letting them attach on a piece of live rock, it's usually multiple frag plugs on eggcrate in a dedicated system.

For breeders, it's not just having a larval rearing tank. We realize you're going to have to have a dedicated tank, as well as phyto and rotifer set ups (BTW, we've identified some folks as commercial because they suddenly realized they could make money rearing phyto and/or rotifers and selling them regularly here... again, the intent changed from raising for themselves to raising with the intent to sell). With breeders, it really comes down to the time and energy you've already invested, and the amount of success you've already had. If you've tried 5 times to rear clown fry, and only had a few fry live, we probably won't consider you commercial. On the other hand, if you've been successful several times and still want to sell the fry here, we'll probably shut you down (by now, you should have a local outlet for your fish).

We have sponsors that do EXACTLY what some "hobbyists" do with regard to fish breeding and sales and coral fragging and sales, and yet we do not allow them to advertise or sell outside their banner or dedicated forum. They're paying the money that keeps RC running. We have to have some type of mechanism for identifying those hobbyists who have crossed over into the commercial realm (you'd be surprised at the number of hobbyists we've identified as "commercial," who fought and argued about it, and yet later opened e-tail, and sometimes brick and mortar, businesses).

Our system isn't perfect, and we welcome real suggestions on improving it. Just don't expect a pass for all breeders, nor a pass for all fraggers ("hey, I keep a tank, I'm a hobbyist" just doesn't make it as an excuse).

In any case, I hope this helps explain some of the criteria we use. I emphasize "some," because some of our most commercial posters also seem to want to argue every little comma and period, looking for loopholes and demanding their "right" to sell on RC (no, really, you'd be surprised at some of the exchanges we have behind the scenes with people).

Kevin
 
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The members of the community that actively contribute and then one day appear "moved on" are very rarely removed for posting a selling thread. I can say this, because these are the more public "breakups" where the circumstance is usually made public knowledge.

It's like I said before - the guys post gets pulled and he's told commercial is not allowed. The guy gets angry, because he feels this is his community having contributed, and he does not see himself as commercial. The mod and the user get into an argument. The user gets "moved on" because it's never a good idea to kick dirt on the umpire's shoes, or to call him names.

Now, in the Mods defense, this is your house, and we play by your rules.

But in the User's defense, I really find it hard to believe that the people who fall in to this category are knowingly and intentionally violating the rules. IF they were, they wouldn't be so upset when they get busted - they would do like the vast majority of posts that get pulled, they would simply nod and move on.

Beyond that, the rule is vague, and the ambiguity of it makes it appear as though it is being applied unevenly, which leads to conspiracy theories. In addition, in order to enforce the rule, the moderator has to determine the motive of the poster. How do you as a mod, determine if someone "bought or raised something with the intention of selling it" using just these forum boards?

I'm a black and white kind of guy. Draw the line, make it clear, concise, and simple. It can be done, it's not nearly as complex as it seems.

The main motive behind that rule is to keep this a community site and to protect the sponsors. I think the rule can be better defined to do both of those things. Not only that, but I feel that it needs to be done, because every time one of these incidents occurs it damages the community to some extent. In the long run, that is bad. It would be much better for the community as a whole, if they went to the seller forum, looked, and said "yup, he tried to sell $500 of fish, which exceeds the limit, he broke the rules, now he has to pay the price." No more conspiracy theory, no more "the moderators are against me", etc, etc. It's a win/win for the community and for the staff.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9240004#post9240004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cuervo
I'm a black and white kind of guy. Draw the line, make it clear, concise, and simple. It can be done, it's not nearly as complex as it seems.


I wish that were true ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9240004#post9240004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cuervo
I'm a black and white kind of guy. Draw the line, make it clear, concise, and simple. It can be done, it's not nearly as complex as it seems.

The main motive behind that rule is to keep this a community site and to protect the sponsors. I think the rule can be better defined to do both of those things. Not only that, but I feel that it needs to be done, because every time one of these incidents occurs it damages the community to some extent. In the long run, that is bad. It would be much better for the community as a whole, if they went to the seller forum, looked, and said "yup, he tried to sell $500 of fish, which exceeds the limit, he broke the rules, now he has to pay the price." No more conspiracy theory, no more "the moderators are against me", etc, etc. It's a win/win for the community and for the staff.

I appreciate your suggestion, but it's not that easy.

Let's take corals. I could frag twenty SPS corals a month and not get as much a s someone selling a single frag of Acan or Dendro, or whatever the hot coral of the moment is. So, do I set the bar unreasonably high to allow people who can frag a more "limited edition" coral, thereby allowing people to sell a ton of more "routine" corals, or do I penalize the guy who may have an expensive coral in his tank that he wants (or needs) to frag?

How about equipment/supplies? I could create frag disks and sell them to everyone who wanted them and not come close to someone selling a used BubbleKing skimmer.

The examples I use are extreme, but the point isn't - setting arbitrary monetary limits doesn't work - there are too many exceptions.

Kevin
 
hmm.. how about this:

By category - ie. Coral Frags, Equipment, Macro's, Captive Breed, etc, etc.

A monetary limit and/or a number of sales posts limit per month.

So - A user can either make say one selling post offering X number of items per month or a maximum of X dollars per month. Whichever is greater.

Under this rule, the guy selling a single type of rare frag would be able to make a single post per month offering X number of frags, price does not matter. (X being set at the time the rule is decided upon, and being set to a reasonable number for a hobbyist to reach, but not high enough that a commercial operations sees this as a good outlet for their wares.)

or

The other guy can make as many posts as he wants, but cannot be offering more than $250 worth of corals in total.

in an equipment context:

Mr Bubbleking can sell 1 skimmer per month for $500

or

He can sell 3 DIY skimmers for $150 each in 3 seperate posts.


The goal being to make set those limits so that it is not worth the time for the true commercial operation, but that it is still high enough that the hobbyist does have to many problems with hitting the limit.

The fact is that there are people selling even now that probably fall under the current definition of commercial. There are also hobbyists being caught inadvertently by the same rule.

What am I talking about makes it so that it really doesn't matter. If ORA wants to bother with making 3 posts a month to offer CB clownfish for a total of $300/mo, who cares. Because of the limit, they will not be competing heavily with the sponsors, or disrupting the hobbyist spirit of the site.

Best of all, if a complaint comes in, a mod pulls up the guys posts for the last couple months, does a little math, and either bans the person or doesn't.

**Edit **
It would then be a matter of the mods and community discussing where to make the limits.

For the breeder section, suppose the rule read:

You may make a single post per month, offering to sell up to 50 indidual fish of the same type or you can make up to 3 posts a month offering up to $250 worth of fish in total, whichever is greater.

For the frag section:

You may make a single post per month, offering up to 10 frags of the same type, or you can make up to 3 posts per month offering a total of $300 worth of frags.

The numbers I'm using are just for example, I am not versed well enough in either of these categories to determine if those particular limits are accurate enough to accomplish the desired goal.
 
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Sorry.. I know it's bad form to double post..

But..

In addition, suppose that a hobbyist does get his commercial start using the selling portion of RC. I suggest that it won't be long before that person recognises the limit, remembers where he got his start, and applies to get his own banner at the top of the page!
 
Cuervo, you neglected to mention that you own page 3.

Please do not attempt to sell it or I will have to ban you.
 
Cuervo,

Strangely enough, many of the things you have mentioned are things we have discussed, as well as various software programs that would allow us to monitor the various limits (we don't have that yet).

As soon as we start talking about these things we get the "what about a person who is selling their entire set up - leaving the hobby" question. It's another exception. And it's the exceptions that make the selling and trading forums so difficult to moderate. We have an incredibly high volume of posts in those forums, and it's a nightmare to manually check each one.

Your suggestions at least give us more grist for debate (I think we've mentioned that we don't make any decisions in a vacuum? :D ).

Kevin
 
I would like to add my thanks to Cuervo and others for offering their suggestions.
 
hehe an entire setup is one item - that guy gets 1 post for that month in the equipment section. :)

Same as you wouldn't break a skimmer down into it's seperate pumps, etc.

I can imagine that modding the selling sections is the biggest part of the job. It doesn't take any research to know if I make a bad post in this section. lol

Who gets to mod the mod section, ooh I bet there's some toasty discussions in there. :)

Brian - man.. good thing you don't ban for spelling errors.. I was just re-reading my last couple posts.. ughh.. maybe probation is in order. (double secret probation) :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9240532#post9240532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
Cuervo, you neglected to mention that you own page 3.

Please do not attempt to sell it or I will have to ban you.

ROTFLMAO.
As a long time mod on a large Canadian board, umpire in the summer, referee in the winter and commercial endeavour year round I'm glad and relieved that this has turned into a serious and thought provoking discussion.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9241884#post9241884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dman
ROTFLMAO.
As a long time mod on a large Canadian board, umpire in the summer, referee in the winter and commercial endeavour year round I'm glad and relieved that this has turned into a serious and thought provoking discussion.

So you're a sports official? Some of our former moderators are sports officials. They referee European soccer matches. They said it was safer than being a moderator.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9241903#post9241903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
So you're a sports official? Some of our former moderators are sports officials. They referee European soccer matches. They said it was safer than being a moderator.

Being a mod is safe alright, as long as you NEVER leave your house. :D
 
"quote:
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3rd, consider rule changes, the comparison of coral reproduction and fish reproduction is two opposite ends of the same breeding spectrum. with the exception of bangaii cardinals there is no fish you could realistically breed within a primary tank.
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I have tried to make it very clear on numerous posts that we are aware of these issues and will address them. I have also made it clear that some of the posts made on this issue have lessened my desire to do so. I haven't been given much evidence that anything we post will be met with anything but skepticism and scorn.
"

With all due respect, I see that you say that you are aware of the issues and will address them. I have been, I think, patiently waiting for this address.

I still do not see how Matt could be called commercial. I still see posts every day selling multiple frag packs and stuff from their frag tanks that will be shipped to customers for hundreds of dollars. I have seen no explanation for why Matt is commercial and these sellers are not.

I do not want to contribute to the number of posts that may lessen your desire to address this issue, but, kindly, when might we reasonably expect to see it addressed? How long must we wait?

I understand how you feel. On my end, I don't have the feeling that my post will be met with anything but skepticism and scorn from the moderator staff. I suspect that Matt was suspended, not because he violated a rule, but because he fought hard to prove to you that he did not violate it. His offence was perhaps to challenge authority. I wait to hopefully find out that my suspicions are wrong. But now so much time has passed that I don't expect that my questions will ever be answered, however polite and respectful I am. None of this sits well with me.
I am seriously considering taking a break from Reef Central, perhaps permanently.
Respectfully,
Kathy
 
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