Which one for ME: closed loop or powerheads

[jeremyjoslin]

I know this conversation has been had before, and I know there's a million pros and cons to each. I also know that many of the arguments are now obsolete with the availability of advanced PH's like the MP's. I'm also not looking for a treatise on which is generally better. I've accepted that there's not an answer to that. What I'm wondering is what you would do if you were in my shoes with my tank...

Background: I'm setting up a used 280g tank 64L x 30h x 34w tank with 6 holes in bottom with 1/2" bulkheads which haven't been disturbed since previous owner put them in and 2 intakes at 1.5" each on the side. I've got a Hammerhead Gold with manifold and some of the flex PVC to go to each bulkhead. Connections need some work but are 80% "finished".

I hate the idea of a leaky BH or doing maintenance on the CL system when it needs to be done eventually (I'm a basement sump and fish room kind of guy).

What would you do?

 

[iamwrasseman]

use powerheads so you can adjust ,aim and reposition as needed . CL is to perminent in most of thease areas and it does not provide you with very many options unless you use locline so you can reposition them if needed . you could use pool bulkheads so you can aim the flow where you need to . i have seen many CL systems and yes they flow water very well but they are not very versitile unless you really plan ahead .
just my 2 pennies

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Thanks, Dave.

 

[iamwrasseman]

one other thing buddy is the use of a wave box that will provide a very diverse action within your tank and i love mine and think it keeps detritus moving with this dual action type waterflow
think ,ponder and question , then make up your mind but do take your time to be informed as to your options my friend

 

[blanden.adam]

I second the vote for powerheads. They are simple, efficient, and really easy to maintain. They also give your system both fewer points of failure (the several holes and hoses required to run a good closed loop system, the attachments at the pump, the attachments at the manifold, etc) and removes a single point of failure -- if a powerhead dies, your other ones can still provide flow, if your closed loop system pump dies, your tank loses almost all of its flow.

As to what to do with the holes, I personally would feel more comfortable covering up the holes on the bottom with glass and silicone, but that's just me.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Thanks. I can live with points of failure in the basement. I can't live with the 30 points of failure in a nice living room (as is the case with the CL as currently plumbed).

Going to ponder for awhile.... might think differently tomorrow...

 

[iamwrasseman]

one thing on the "points of failure" if they are slip fittings they just wont leak unless you really mess up . glueing joints is very much fool proof . i have glued 1000s of joints and never had a drip at all . they hardly even leak if you dont use glue , lol. that being said its your floor buddy and just for piece of mind i would trash it and use powerheads ,and also keep an open mind to the wave box idea as they are awesome !

 

[jeremyjoslin]

I agree with well-glued joints, but I'm not a plumber and have had my joints leak before (sounds like a personal problem).

Looking at the current setup in place, I have 6 BH, 6 threaded joints to plumbing, 2 threaded joints to the pump, 2 threaded joints off the pump, and then the 2 intake bulkheads. Not to mention the Reeflo Hammerhead pump sitting in my stand... which is a beastly and royal pump, but will probably leak and push out salt all over if it's anything like the Hammerhead I have in my basement (and yes, I replaced the seals on that one 6 months ago).

%^&*^$#&* Balls this is tough....

 

[low riderr]

i am for keeping the closed loop.i run both a cl and power heads as my tank is 8 feet long its hard to push water from one end to the other.the only issues ive ever had with bulkheads leaking is that they seem to loosen up a bit over time and start to drip a bit.maybe i never got them really tight enough.but all i have to do is tighten the leaking bh and it stops. i also use a oceans motion to help change the flow.the less cords in my system the better. good luck with the build i am shure you will be fine either way you go just remember its good to have options.

 

[Flanders]

If the holes are already there and you've got the pump it seems like a no-brainer. I just finished plumbing my first CL a couple weeks ago and as long as you really use a ton of primer and glue, clean the burrs off the pipes, use tape on the threads and push the fittings in all the way you'll do fine. I really dreaded it but it was not that bad. Good skills to learn also.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Sounds like great dimensions on that 280!
I had holes drilled into the bottom of my first 220, but that was for standpipe drains. It never leaked, but man... I was freaked out for many months after I first filled it up in my living room.

I've seen glass aquariums on RC that failed because they had too many holes drilled into the bottom. It ain't pretty. Plus it makes you look like a damned fool.



I'd have to see EVERYTHING before giving a recommendation to you, j.

 

[SkiFletch]

Some thoughts from my brain. First off, using a hammerhead (HH) for a closed loop is folly. HH's are pumps which are designed for pressure, not flowrate. They're awesome for basement sumps and plumbing multiple forced water lines, but not efficient for closed loops. A Dart is way better. It all boils down to the physics of designing the impellers. Pumps with "fatter" looking heads (in relation to the motor) are in general better at producing high flow with low pressure, while thinner pumps are for creating more pressure than flow.

2nd thought from my brain. Is electrical energy a concern for you? It is for me. I HATE any kind of monthly cost/fee, they add up FAST. So saving a fwe bucks on my electric bill is a priority in my house. Powerheads are so much more electrically efficient than a CL it's not even funny. A handful of watts for an MP or similar compared to something like 300+ for the HH and close to 200 for the Dart. Initial cost is similar so the electricity savings can add up fast.

Finally, if you do decide to go PH over CL, 2 thoughts about the plugging of holes. If you do ever want to consider selling the tank, plugging the bulkheads in a non-permanet way would be a little more ideal when it comes time to do so. If you're worried, lubricate the O-rings on the BH and tighten well. I've had the same bulkheads on my tank for close to 8 years now, still not a drip... They'll fail eventually, but it takes a very long time. Also, if you want the piece of mind of siliconing the holes shut with glass, be careful if you want to do it from the outside. I realize these are only 1.5" holes and the resulting pressure on them will only be about 5-6 lbs, but silicone doesn't like to be stressed with a strain force like that. It's MUCH better at shear. Putting any glass inside puts the silicone in shear stress, outside is in strain. I'd feel eons better if I had the plug inside

 

[jeremyjoslin]

i am for keeping the closed loop.i run both a cl and power heads as my tank is 8 feet long its hard to push water from one end to the other.the only issues ive ever had with bulkheads leaking is that they seem to loosen up a bit over time and start to drip a bit.maybe i never got them really tight enough.but all i have to do is tighten the leaking bh and it stops. i also use a oceans motion to help change the flow.the less cords in my system the better. good luck with the build i am shure you will be fine either way you go just remember its good to have options.

Thanks for the point of view. My tank is just under 6 foot long (so less than your 8 foot). Would you think 64" is too far to push water with a MP40 (or even MP60)?

As for the "drip a bit" part, we might have a different tolerance there. In the basement, I don't think anything of a leaky pipe. In the living room, I have zero tolerance for saltwater drips. What if you need to loosen and tighten a BH with 280 gallons of water above it? I've done it with my 150g and cursed through the whole thing (and this was only in the overflow box compartment where I had drained it and it steal put water everywhere).

If I do an MPx0 there wouldn't be any cords in the tank...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on moving water 64" with an MP40/60.

Thanks again for the thoughts.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

If the holes are already there and you've got the pump it seems like a no-brainer. I just finished plumbing my first CL a couple weeks ago and as long as you really use a ton of primer and glue, clean the burrs off the pipes, use tape on the threads and push the fittings in all the way you'll do fine. I really dreaded it but it was not that bad. Good skills to learn also.

Thanks. I've done a ton of PVC gluing, and know that every 20 joints or so needs to be redone (when I do). OK. Not the big concern here. It's the taped/threaded ones that also concern me. And the BH's. The Hammerhead I run in the basement leaks just a teeny bit on the output end. Others have told me they have the same problem. Maybe using a different pump might help?

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Sounds like great dimensions on that 280!
I had holes drilled into the bottom of my first 220, but that was for standpipe drains. It never leaked, but man... I was freaked out for many months after I first filled it up in my living room.

I've seen glass aquariums on RC that failed because they had too many holes drilled into the bottom. It ain't pretty. Plus it makes you look like a damned fool.


I'd have to see EVERYTHING before giving a recommendation to you, j.

I appreciate the reservation. Any thoughts on ability to move water in this tank using an MP40/60 and the return lines?

 

[jeremyjoslin]

I think I would agree that a CL system can provide more flow.
But if maximum flow is NOT my goal, only ADEQUATE flow is my goal, would PH's be sufficient?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

JMO: conventional powerheads wouldn't be an option for this aquarium. MP40s and/or MP60s or Tunze Streams coupled with return lines could provide enough flow if a CL wasn't used.

 

[low riderr]

i think the mp40 that i have run out of poop at 4 feet.i really need to step up to a pair of 60's but the thought of the cost really makes me weak kneed.you would be fine with 40's i would think.my pump for my closed loop is just below the floor under the tank so i dont hear it in the livingroom.so if i have to work on it the mess is in the basement

 

[Flanders]

Thanks. I've done a ton of PVC gluing, and know that every 20 joints or so needs to be redone (when I do). OK. Not the big concern here. It's the taped/threaded ones that also concern me. And the BH's. The Hammerhead I run in the basement leaks just a teeny bit on the output end. Others have told me they have the same problem. Maybe using a different pump might help?

I have not had an issue with any of my threaded fittings or CL bulkheads. I just used a lot of tape and grease and they were fine. as for the pump leaking, that seems unacceptable. I dunno. I'm using an Iwaki and no leaks, but it is pretty noisy.

I think you could get there with prop pumps, it's just too bad to not use what's already there. if you do decide to use the CL maybe look into selling the pump you have and getting one of those VFD variable speed pumps. they are very inexpensive and seem quiet. der wille zur macht uses one, you could ask him about it.

 

[Flanders]

also if you decide to nix the CL the preferred method for sealing it off is caps, NOT glass patches as I understand it. I can't remember why. you might want to research before making a decision on which to do.