white carpet and maroon clowns

[corvetteking]

hello i have a large white carpet anemone [short tenticals].. and three maroon clowns yellow stripe. my three clown have hosted into the carpet has bean 2 months now.when i bought the carpet it was very white but since the clown have hosted the carpet has a redish tinge to it. i was just wondering if it is posible if the maroon color on the clowns can stain the carpet from the clown rubbing on the carpet. the carpet seems very healthy and has a good appatite.the color change on the carpet gets me kind of nervous. hany info would be great thank you,

75 gal. wet dry set up
uv light
sand substrate
2 black and white clowns
2 perculia clowns
3 maroon clowns
1 tomato clown
1 chocolate chip starfish
1 very large green carpet. 20 inches long
1 white carpet large 14 inches long

 

[Reef1589]

a white carpet is bad... if its getting its color back its a good thing haha you shouldnt worry about it..

by you saying short tentacle's.. im assuming a Red S. Haddoni? .. white = bleached and unhealthy.

you got any pictures?

**edit ... are you going for a World War for clownfish? you should probably take all those species out and stick to just 1 species...

 

[BonsaiNut]

Any photos?

To answer your question, no color cannot rub off a fish onto the carpet anemone.

White is not a natural healthy color for any clown anemone. It normally means it has bleached and lost all its zooxanthellae - the single-celled algae that it gets much of its energy from. If your anemone is REGAINING reddish/brown color that is a GOOD SIGN. The zooxanthellae is actually brownish in color and an anemone recovering from being bleached will almost look like it is getting spots of rust on it - except they will be on the inside of the anemone.

Photos would help us a lot to figure out what's going on.

 

[125mph]

You have lots of clowns :uzi:

 

[deangelr]

Any photos?

White is not a natural healthy color for any clown anemone.

I've got to disagree with you there. I have seen several white anemones both diving and in dive photos.. There are 4 white(ish) anemones on the cover of Fautin's book. Take a look at my avatar as well..

Not saying that white anemones are all healthy, but IMO, they can be white, not bleached, and healthy. A white bleached anemone looks much different then a healthy one.

 

[elegance coral]

I've got to disagree with you there. I have seen several white anemones both diving and in dive photos.. There are 4 white(ish) anemones on the cover of Fautin's book. Take a look at my avatar as well..

Not saying that white anemones are all healthy, but IMO, they can be white, not bleached, and healthy. A white bleached anemone looks much different then a healthy one.

Counting the back cover, there are 5 anemones on the cover of Fautin's book. All of them are bleached, as is the one in your avatar.

There are host anemones that have white markings on them, that are not bleached, but there are no solid white host anemones that are not bleached. These anemones contain zooxanthellae. Zooxanthellae are a golden brown color. All host anemones should have this golden brown color. If they don't, they are bleached.

 

[deangelr]

Curious what you mean by "bleached" , I would assume that you mean lack of zooxanthellae? .. An anemone allowing a greater photosynthetic rate is quite natural, and healthy.

Zooxanthellae are not responsible for the color of an anemone.. Anemones produce their own pigmentation that provides them color in concert with their zooxanthellae. I certainly do not see the brown color of zooanthellae in every anemone, do you?

I do not have any reason to beleive that the anemone in my avatar is lacking in zooxanthellae.. I find white to be a natural color, especially for H. crispa and S. haddoni.. Provide me some literature that says otherwise and I will read up on it.

 

[elegance coral]

Curious what you mean by "bleached" , I would assume that you mean lack of zooxanthellae? .. An anemone allowing a greater photosynthetic rate is quite natural, and healthy.

Yes. By "bleached", I mean a lack of zooxanthellae. How can an anemone that lacks zooxanthellae "allow a greater photosynthetic rate"?

Zooxanthellae are not responsible for the color of an anemone.. Anemones produce their own pigmentation that provides them color in concert with their zooxanthellae. I certainly do not see the brown color of zooanthellae in every anemone, do you?

Zooxanthellae are indeed responsible for the golden brown color that we find in anemones that are not bleached. Yes, I do see a brown color in every host anemone that is not bleached. The animal produce the pretty colors we want. The red, blue, green, purple.......... It is the zooxanthellae that provide the brown color.

I do not have any reason to beleive that the anemone in my avatar is lacking in zooxanthellae.

Do you see zooxanthellae in that pic? If you can't see zooxanthellae, the anemone is bleached.

. I find white to be a natural color, especially for H. crispa and S. haddoni.. Provide me some literature that says otherwise and I will read up on it.

Do I really need to go searching for links to this info?????
Maybe these pic's will help.

Here's my gigantea when I first got it. You can see some areas that appear dirty, or a light tan color. Those are zooxanthellae. The rest of the anemone, that looks white, and doesn't show this tan color, is bleached.

The anemone at the beginning of this video is the same one from the pic above. It has recovered from being bleached. As you can see, it is no longer white, or "bleached". The oral disk, and the base of all the tentacles are a golden brown color. This is produced by the zooxanthellae living inside it. The purple, or blue color on the tips of its tentacles is produced by the anemone itself.
<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ugVktUZV-bE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[deangelr]

Yes. By "bleached", I mean a lack of zooxanthellae. How can an anemone that lacks zooxanthellae "allow a greater photosynthetic rate"?

I did not say that an anemone that lacks zooxanthellae can allow a greater photosynthetic rate..

I was elluding to the fact that anemones can change their pigment based on environmental conditions to allow a great photosynthetic rate.

Zooxanthellae are indeed responsible for the golden brown color that we find in anemones that are not bleached.

I do not find a golden brown color in every non-bleached anemone... It is masked by the pigmentation of the anemone..

The animal produce the pretty colors we want. The red, blue, green, purple.......... It is the zooxanthellae that provide the brown color.

We are on the same page here.. This is what I said:

"Zooxanthellae are not responsible for the color of an anemone.. Anemones produce their own pigmentation"

Do you see zooxanthellae in that pic? If you can't see zooxanthellae, the anemone is bleached.

Again, I do not se zooxanthellae in the picture, nor in any other anemone.. Can you point out the zooxanthellae in other anemones? I have seen it in closeups but not really with the naked eye.

Do I really need to go searching for links to this info?????

No, of course you dont.. But what I think you are trying to argue here is that anemone cannot naturally produce white as a pigmentation..

I am saying that I beleive they can and commonly due. There are translucent anemones that have clearly lost their zooxanthellae and there are white anemones, a coloration produced by the animal.

Maybe these pic's will help.

The zooanthellae are very small and look almost like tiny bugs in the anemone (from the pictures I have seen). These are usally not apparent in a healthy anemone (at least in my tanks)

It has recovered from being bleached. As you can see, it is no longer white, or "bleached". The oral disk, and the base of all the tentacles are a golden brown color. This is produced by the zooxanthellae living inside it. The purple, or blue color on the tips of its tentacles is produced by the anemone itself.

Not arguing that.. I understand the process.. I am just arguing that the color white can be a naturally occuring pigment in non-bleached anemones.. I know I am not the only one...

 

[elegance coral]

There are host anemones that have white markings on them, that are not bleached, but there are no solid white host anemones that are not bleached. These anemones contain zooxanthellae. Zooxanthellae are a golden brown color. All host anemones should have this golden brown color. If they don't, they are bleached.

Clearly, I am not saying that anemones can not produce white pigments. They can, and do. This does not create a solid white anemone though. If they contain zooxanthellae, you will see them as brownish colored areas. If the anemone produced white pigments, that covered all of the tentacles and oral disk, it would block light from the zooxanthellae, and they would die. Light must be permitted to penetrate into the anemone, to where the zooxanthellae live, in order to fuel photosynthesis.

Here's a pic I used for a different conversation, but it may help here. Anemone color is produced exactly like elegance coral color. The color the anemone produces will appear to be on the surface of the animal. It doesn't matter what color it is. Red, blue, green (like in the elegance), or white. Below this color, or deeper inside the animal, will be a brownish color, produced by the zooxanthellae. If the animal does not have this brownish color, it is bleached.

 

[elegance coral]

Here's an old anemone of mine. It has white pigments on the tips of it's tentacles, but the brown of the zooxanthellae is obvious.

 

[deangelr]

In my avatar you cannot even see the base.. Perhaps it has much darker coloration...

So you are saying that there are no solid white, or predominately solid white anemones (like my avatar, or the haddoni on the cover) that are not bleached?

The BTA and the LTA (not sure on ID) on the cover clearly have the darker areas of zooxanthellae that you are pointing to in your picture.. The crispa (front and back) and haddoni seem to have white pigmentation that is produced by the anemone.. I would bet that if we had detailed pictures we would see zooxanthellae there also.


Are you saying that these anemone are unhealthy and/or lacking in zooxanthellae and will not survive in their current condition?

To me they are sure appear to be healthy whitish colored anemones..

 

[lazytaper]

I thought Mertensii has a white morph.

 

[elegance coral]

Here's my haddoni, after she bleached from a power outage. Look between the tentacles. It looks white. This is from the absence of zooxanthellae. Just like the pic on the cover of Fautin's book.

Look between the tentacles, of the same anemone, when she is not bleached. (pic below) The area between the tentacles is much darker. If the haddoni on Fautin's book simply had white tentacles, you would still see the dark zooxanthellae between the tentacles. You don't see this, because it is bleached, and it lacks the dark color of the zooxanthellae.

 

[deangelr]

EC.. The dark areas look blue.. And the greener areas also look much darker green..

I am confused..

To me this looks like a green anemone that was bleached and has filled in nicely with some darker green in the tentacles and some blue in the spaces on the oral disk.. I honestly do not see the zooxanthellae (although I know they are there and in Higher numbers)

I don't see how this counters my argument..

To me it appears that anemones that are bleached are translucent, whereas anemone that have that white color are white. The zooxanthellae are not visibly brown (their actual color) because of the solid opaque whiteness of the anemone..

We have all seen and know the solid white morph of condy's.. I cant figure out why if in that species there is no dark color at all, it could not also be possible for a similar color patter in a hosting species.

Is it possibly that every white hosting anemone I have seen in pictures, diving, or in aquariums is bleached? Yes of course.. I do not have a white anemone in my tank with long term documentation of its health and color so I cannot prove they exist. I am just arguing that I would bet they do..

 

[deangelr]

I think we are at the TOE MAYTO TOE MAHTO point a bit.. Its like Do yellow gigantea's exist? or Red gigs? I would say yes and yes... But that depends on what you consider "yellow" or "red"

At least there are some colors close to yellow, red, and white, that I believe do occur, but are rarely ever seen in the wild and probably never enter the hobby..

 

[elegance coral]

In my avatar you cannot even see the base.. Perhaps it has much darker coloration...

It doesn't. The portion that shows in the pic is drastically bleached, with absolutely no signs of zooxanthellae. Other areas of the anemone may have visible signs of zooxanthellae, but it will not be "much darker". I've seen anemones bleach in areas, and recover from bleaching in some areas before others, but you won't get the drastic bleaching, shown in your avatar, while the rest of the anemone is affected. If it is that bad in the pic, then the rest of the anemone has been effected as well. Maybe not to that extreme, but it has been effected.

So you are saying that there are no solid white, or predominately solid white anemones (like my avatar, or the haddoni on the cover) that are not bleached?

Correct. There are no photosynthetic, zooxanthellae containing, anemones that are that white. If they contain zooxanthellae, they will show, and cause the anemone to look brownish where those zooxanthellae are. If there is no brownish color, there are no zooxanthellae, and the anemone is bleached.

The BTA and the LTA (not sure on ID) on the cover clearly have the darker areas of zooxanthellae that you are pointing to in your picture.. The crispa (front and back) and haddoni seem to have white pigmentation that is produced by the anemone.. I would bet that if we had detailed pictures we would see zooxanthellae there also.

If you had a microscope, or strong magnifying glass, you may be able to spot some zooxanthellae. That doesn't change the fact that these anemones are bleached. In an anemone that isn't bleached, you don't need these tools to detect their zooxanthellae. The zooxanthellae are obvious in anemones that are not bleached.

Are you saying that these anemone are unhealthy and/or lacking in zooxanthellae and will not survive in their current condition?

I'm not judging health. An anemone can discharge its zooxanthellae and still be healthy. There are many variable that come in to play here. The anemone may bleach simply from a stressful situation, and not receive any physical damage in the process. In which case, the anemone would be healthy shortly after bleaching. If the anemone bleached because it was exposed to to much light, the oxidant level within its tissues could climb to high. Cellular damage could occur, and the anemone would not be healthy shortly after bleaching.

To me they are sure appear to be healthy whitish colored anemones..

I would agree with this. The race is on though. The anemone must regain its zooxanthellae if long term survival, and health is to be obtained. Under the right conditions, an anemone can live in the bleached state, for quite a long time. I've seen them last for over a year. Eventually, they will either regain their zooxanthellae, or suffer malnutrition and die.

 

[elegance coral]

EC.. The dark areas look blue.. And the greener areas also look much darker green..

The dark areas look blue, because of the lights. It is actually brownish.

I am confused..

To me this looks like a green anemone that was bleached and has filled in nicely with some darker green in the tentacles and some blue in the spaces on the oral disk.. I honestly do not see the zooxanthellae (although I know they are there and in Higher numbers)

What you are seeing as blue, is actually the zooxanthellae. With no actinics, it would look brownish. Not blue.

I don't see how this counters my argument..

To me it appears that anemones that are bleached are translucent, whereas anemone that have that white color are white. The zooxanthellae are not visibly brown (their actual color) because of the solid opaque whiteness of the anemone..

None of these anemones produce pigments that completely block out light to their zooxanthellae. Light must be able to reach the zooxanthellae. If light can reach them, we can see them. If we don't see them, they aren't there, and the anemone is bleached.

We have all seen and know the solid white morph of condy's.. I cant figure out why if in that species there is no dark color at all, it could not also be possible for a similar color patter in a hosting species.

There are no solid white condy's, that are not bleached. The vast majority of these anemones you will find in a LFS, are bleached. The zooxanthellae are obvious in Condy's that are not bleached.

Is it possibly that every white hosting anemone I have seen in pictures, diving, or in aquariums is bleached? Yes of course.. I do not have a white anemone in my tank with long term documentation of its health and color so I cannot prove they exist. I am just arguing that I would bet they do..

I'm sorry, but it's impossible. These animals harbor zooxanthellae. They can not be solid white, while harboring a population of brown zooxanthellae.

 

[deangelr]

Do you also think the crispa on the back cover is bleached? and will face death if its zooxanthellae are not regained?

 

[deangelr]

What you are seeing as blue, is actually the zooxanthellae. With no actinics, it would look brownish. Not blue.

I have seen plenty of anemones including my own that do not appear brown without actinic lighting.. In fact I can recognize no brown at all. Even with a flashlight.. I can take pictures and post.. In fact I find anemone most colorful when observing them at night under natural light.

None of these anemones produce pigments that completely block out light to their zooxanthellae. Light must be able to reach the zooxanthellae. If light can reach them, we can see them. If we don't see them, they aren't there, and the anemone is bleached.

Again, I do not see brown in my anemones or other anemones in the tank, out of the tank, or under any/no lighting.. I have seen many colors.. Including what appears to be white

There are no solid white condy's, that are not bleached. The vast majority of these anemones you will find in a LFS, are bleached. The zooxanthellae are obvious in Condy's that are not bleached.

I have been diving in the Caribbean for almost 10 years now.. I have seen thousands of solid white condy's, some with bright purple tips.. But no other visible colors in the base except white.