White Knights....thoughts?

I thought that post would cause a lot of feedback so my mission was accomplished. I agree with some points and not so much with others. There is a lot to post so I will just bite my tongue, making sure I'm abiding by the UA, and say that just purchase whatever you like. I'm not crazy in love with all the "designer" clowns and don't think that all picassos or onyx or what have you are created equal. I searched for months before I finally decided on my pair of clowns and think that they are beautiful and very appealing to my eyes which is why the price tag was worth it to me.

If you prefer the wild caught genetically correct straight from the ocean percula or ocellaris then that's cool with me too.

What's not to like:
002-1.jpg
 
aandfsoccr04 said:
What's not to like
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can see at a glance the quality of this fish. Beautiful body shape, clean lines, good fins, plump, flawless white, ink velvet black, uniform bright orange, sharp markings with crisp clean margins. Aside from the markings, it would be very difficult to distinguish this fish from a wild caught holotype. If we can breed one fish like this, why can't they ALL be like this?
 
I thought this was what we were talking about the whole time!!!!! I was just defending what I had in my head as a "designer" clown fish. I appreciate your very high praise as I respect your opinion after reading over your well informed posts over the past year or so. Thank you sir :D
 
Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference :) They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).

koishow.jpg
 
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aandfsoccr04 said:
What's not to like:
002-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing...because that's a beautiful, healthy fish! Nicely shaped head, no flared gills, jutting jaws, or any other flaws. THAT is the model of what a designer clownfish should be, and proof that you can get unusual markings without sacrificing the fish's natural beauty. :thumbsup:

Incidentally, I'm a big fan/promoter of aquaculture, so I would never favor wild-caught over captive-bred. As your photo proves, captive-bred fish can look every bit as good as their wild brethren.

BTW, Bonsai, those koi make me wish I could afford a house with a huge koi pond. ;)
 
BonsaiNut said:
Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference :) They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).

koishow.jpg
Click to expand...

So which is which??
 
BonsaiNut said:
From left to right... highest quality, high quality, moderate quality.
Click to expand...

That was my guess - usually healthy fish have that shape. Though, I must admit, not being familiar with koi, the fins on the second look 'better' to me than on the one on the left.
 
BonsaiNut said:
Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference :) They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).

koishow.jpg
Click to expand...


I'd say the one on the left is the most expensive one. It has the brightest colors and is the biggest. I don't know about the other two.
 
lmsmith said:
That was my guess - usually healthy fish have that shape. Though, I must admit, not being familiar with koi, the fins on the second look 'better' to me than on the one on the left.
Click to expand...

Check out this video:

2012 All Japan Nishikigo Show Grand Champion

Forward to :40 to see this monster swimming. It is a 6 year-old that is over 3' long.

Because koi are viewed from above (normally in ponds) all judging is done from above as well (versus clowns which are viewed from the side). The single most important consideration is an "imposing appearance" which often means the fish that combines attributes of size with a projection of health. It should "radiate" power.

Generally speaking, the other categories on which a koi is judged is:
(1) Conformation (body size, shape, symmetry, etc)
(2) Color (quality of color, consistency, depth, skin tone, finish etc)
(3) Pattern (design of pattern, definition of edges, etc)
(4) Quality (sometimes includes unique impressions of fish)

There is a LOT written on koi judging. Generally only females are shown because they have the girth to project a powerful impression. Of the 3 koi I pictured, the last one is a male. He is skinnier, but his sumi (black coloration) has not yet developed. You can see it a little under the skin. When his black comes up he may become a much more valuable fish.
 
I agree with everyone in this thread. I am a breeder of clowns and I am working on making designer clowns as well as tomatoes, saddles, fire and clarkii. My fav clowns are tricinctus and Chrysopterus. I am a fan of the basic clowns, but I love the designers as well. Hopefully some more start laying for me in the future. For me there is no question about the quality of fish I want to sell. I have yet to sell any fish due to me wanting to get better at it. I spend over $200 per month on food for my broodstock to produce the best fry. My fish eat better than I do. They get yellow fin tuna beautiful salmon and tons of shellfish. I fine tune my recipe as the fry hatch to make better and better offspring.
I love designer clowns and I know alot of Breeders that do care as much as I do, and others not so much. Even Ora is guilty of selling bad fish all the time from stubbies to misbars for more than regular fish. Absurd. Plus their fish haven not been looking good. Basement breeders sometimes breed better clowns than Ora does.
My best successes come from my rods onyx. I started with lots of misbars and getting better each batch. I feel we breeders learn as we go. The breeders I talk to alot are very helpful and want everyone to succeed. That wasn't always the case. When I first started hardly anyone shared their secrets. Or even helped. So I believe this led to many bad breeders. Now I know of alot of small time breeders who are raising beautiful fish. Brian who started this WK is one of them. I do agree about the jaw issue. We all share our ups and downs so we become better breeders.
I am thinking of getting a pair of WK and see how they grow up. Just like I bought a pair of snowcasso from Doni. I actually talked to her a few times and she has been very helpful. Now if I csn keep my rots alive more than a week I would be doing great !!


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk
 
When I first read this thread, I thought it was crazy even considering paying that much for a little clown fish. I recently bought two new ordinary clowns for $30. I looked at buying a speical pair for $120, but thought that was too much. After continuing to follow up on the post, and what an interesting post it is, I remembered last month I spent $90 on 2 corals. Some Darth Maul zoas (4 polips) and Bubble Gum Monster chalice (1 inch with 3 eyes). I think I'm the crazy one now.

To each their own
 
I did some more research on this last night and today and still stand firmly behind what I said earlier in the thread. Even though the designer clowns alter the genes of the clownfish to bring out these different colors and patterns I still think it's perfectly fine to do since it doesn't cause the clown any drastic side effects. However, if it becomes anything like the freshwater industry then I will have some problems.

There are too many examples in the fresh water fish like betas and guppies who are bred to have those ridiculously large tails which hinder the swimming or goldfish who are bred to have huge tumors on their head or bubbles under their eyes which make their eyes constantly point upwards. The notorious parrot fish who are consantly dyed an assortment of colors or often tattooed different patterns on the fish. I'm not ok with altering a fish that is in a way taking away from the quality of life of the fish but I don't think just manipulating the color of the fish like a picasso or snowflake fish is a bad thing as long as they don't have the defects like a pugface or protruding jaw.

Dalmations are another example who are notorious for having drastic side effects like cancer and deafness since they were originally black dogs and now are bred so many times for that certain gene that makes their coat appear white (leucism).
:thumbsup:
*steps off soapbox*
 
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