whoever did this is a dirtbag

hmm. Richard is a one man band, so I don't think it any of his stuff. He might know the guy though. 300k lbs is a lot to unload through internet, LFS etc though. I am wondering if it may be storm damage/loss.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15209958#post15209958 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noahm
hmm. Richard is a one man band, so I don't think it any of his stuff. He might know the guy though. 300k lbs is a lot to unload through internet, LFS etc though. I am wondering if it may be storm damage/loss.

yeah, i saw the guy's name in the article....just didn't know if richard had partners or not

when i saw it, TBS was the 1st company that came to mind....how's that for "brand marketing"? LOL

you say asprin, i think Tylenol
you say carbonated beverage, i think coke
you say aquacultured rock in key west, i think TBS :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15209958#post15209958 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noahm
hmm. Richard is a one man band, so I don't think it any of his stuff. He might know the guy though. 300k lbs is a lot to unload through internet, LFS etc though. I am wondering if it may be storm damage/loss.

Kind of strange as I had a dream about my Keys site last night, and had the thought, I need to get down there and check it out.

Now after reading this today...I was like...wow...deja-vu... I am planning a trip to see how it is doing. My site is just up the reef from his.

I would I imagine that the local FWC officers will have seen that much activity and know something. It would take more than 175 trips to remove that much rock. I placed 173 boats of rock on my site there and let me tell you, is not an easy process.

Richard TBS:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:
 
richard

richard

keep us updated Richard we def want to know that your materials are ok and we are a curious bunch
 
More info from Industry participants..

More info from Industry participants..

Here is a c/p from my email


Ken Banks and interested parties,
I spoke with the local federal agents about this on Tuesday and have known
about the investigation for over a month. My opinion is that nobody stole
the rock,... it's just buried. I have a state live rock lease within a few
miles of this guys site and it regularly gets trashed by just a big blow.
We put close to 160,000 pounds of rock in the water in the summer of 2005,
stacked it on top of 200,000 pounds of rock that was mostly buried from
previous storms, and by the end of the year most of it had disappeared into
the sand. We spent dozens of dives on the site in the summer of 2006
digging the rock up out of the sand, and in the fall it was once again
buried by tropical storms. We haven't had a hurricane hit us for a couple
years, but it doesn't take a direct hit to bury rocks that are sitting in
sand out in federal waters. Last fall we had several hurricanes pass close
enough to give us tropical storm force winds (Ike in particular) and those
winds buried most of the rock we had dug up at our Lower Matecumbe site
during the summer of 2008, so it's likely his site met the same fate.

I've been growing live rock in the Keys since 1994, longer than anyone, and
I know from experience that success doesn't come easy, and that location is
very important. Success requires monthly maintenance, if not weekly, and
tropical storms can and will completely destroy an exposed site. After
talking to the NOAA agent down here, I got the impression that he basically
put his rock on the bottom then didn't visit the site for over a year (two
years is what I heard). I hate to break the news to him, but it doesn't
work like that (if it did, I'd be retired by now).

To imply that 300,000 pounds of rock was stolen over the last year has some
logistical problems.
First of all, that's a lot of rock, and it's an easy thing to dump it on
the bottom, but a whole lot more work to collect it on the bottom and pull
it all back up.
Second, it would take at least a hundred trips to bring it all back in,
and then it would have to be transported somewhere for holding, then shipped
somewhere. A hundred trips would pretty much mean that someone would be out
there poaching rock on every decent day for the last year. I find it hard
to believe that anyone could steal 300,000 pounds of rock from the
Islamorada area without someone noticing it happening.
Third, 300,000 pounds of rock doesn't just disappear into the aquarium
trade without causing some sort of ripple.
Lastly (but I could go on and on), Unless someone has an aquaculture
permit, why would they poach cultured rock when it would be much easier to
poach the real thing? The chances of getting caught poaching rock from
either of my live rock sites is much higher than it would be from the
rubble zones of the reef, so it wouldn't make sense to target an aquaculture
site. I guess it's remotely possible that another aquaculture permit
holder could have stolen the rock, but if you go back to the first three
points, it doesn't add up.

This same thing happened about 6 years ago with two guys off Islamorada, and
at the time I suggested that the same thing had happened (storm damage). I
don't know what the outcome of that investigation was, but as long as people
think they can put a mound of rock on the bottom (in the sand, in the open
ocean) and think it's going to stay there undisturbed for two years we're
going to continue to get these kinds of claims.

I would suggest that someone go out there and show this guy how to dig rock
up out of the sand before any more time is wasted on an investigation. Most
likely the rock is all still there, and for him the reality of growing live
rock in the open ocean is going to lose some of it's luster. For a second
opinion on this, just ask any other live rock farmer in the Keys and I
suspect that you'll hear the same story (Start with Richard Londeree, Don
DeMaria, and Forrest Young) Ken Nedimyer
 
and another

and another

Hi All,

As another point of view, while I share all the same opinions that Ken
does, and have been cultivating rock for nearly as long, we actually had
an entire live rock site with over 100,000 lbs disappear entirely in a
tropical storm, much less a hurricane.

Bare hard pan sites in the sea and sandy ones are that way for a
reason. Sea surge dictates bottom contour and vice versa.

Stealing a quarter of a million pounds of rocks would be a major, major
operation and once you did it, the market simply isn't there to sell the
stuff in those quantities at a cost that would merely cover the labor to
bring it up, at least in our business, it simply isn't.

Thats my two cents.

Best Regards,

F.
 
And my reply..

And my reply..

It is buried. The rock does not go anywhere. Look at the ballast piles that
have been out there for 300-400- years, it is all in the same spots as the
day it went down. It however is buried and exposed depending on the storms.

I first put rock out in 1997 on my site behind Davis. Was all enthused until
the first storm came and 100% covered the site in sand, not one rock was
showing, I was devastated. However upon investigation I discovered it was
all there, just under the sand.

This has happened numerous tines since the lease inception. 600,000 that I
have placed looks like a small 'rubble' pile, unless one goes out and digs
up the rock and stacks it in piles, and then gets a chance to harvest after
some growth has occurred, before the next storm.

Unfortunately I have found that live rock aquaculture in the Keys is a long
shot, certainly not a viable venture, as the storms either blast the rock
back to it's white virgin state, or bury it every year.

The Gulf site here off Tampa is just the opposite. No storm or hurricane
damage has ever occurred since the first one million pounds of rock went
down in 1993, as the dynamics here are totally different than the keys. We
do not have the surges and waves associated with a behind the reef
environment as the Gulf is a slow sloping bottom contour which is not
conducive to large wave and surge development.

This person is simply not familiar with the dynamics of the inner reef areas
of the Keys.

Richard Londeree

www.tbsaltwater.com
 
From a state offical..

From a state offical..

This is info from the state official that did the inspection dives on my site in the Gulf back in 1989...



Ken Nedimyer has surmized the most likely scenario. When I was
conducting potential live rock survey sites for State Submerged Lands
leases, I strongly advised applicants to seek out hard substrate sites
with thin veneers of sand. As many of you familiar with inshore Keys
habitats know, it was actually difficult to find those kinds of sites
that didn't support typical hard bottom communities with sponges,
octocorals and golf ball coral. Ken is certainly right when he stated
that sites like his (with fairly deep shifting sands)need regular
"farming" (attending) to be productive. I agree with Ken that it is
highly unlikely anyone poached this rock because of the labor intensity
involved. We used to require regular reporting from our lease holders on
their aquaculture progress, that must not have been the case for Mr.
Novak's federal site.
 
There is s a simple reason why a person would steel his rock over protected wild live rock. Steeling his cultured rock is the lowest felony possible, a class C felony. About equal to possession of a bag of pot. Steeling wild protected rock would obviously carry much more in the way of fines and jail time and a much harsher felony classification.

It only stands to reason that if the rock was stolen that it would most likeey have just been moved to another sight and added to other cultured rock piles wher it would blend right in, rather than hauled all the way to shore where the cativity would have been more obvious. However it is also quite possibly just buried. Twenty feet is not that deep for small scale sand dredging to take a look.
 
Possibly...but

Possibly...but

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15215132#post15215132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman
There is s a simple reason why a person would steel his rock over protected wild live rock. Steeling his cultured rock is the lowest felony possible, a class C felony. About equal to possession of a bag of pot. Steeling wild protected rock would obviously carry much more in the way of fines and jail time and a much harsher felony classification.

It only stands to reason that if the rock was stolen that it would most likeey have just been moved to another sight and added to other cultured rock piles wher it would blend right in, rather than hauled all the way to shore where the cativity would have been more obvious. However it is also quite possibly just buried. Twenty feet is not that deep for small scale sand dredging to take a look.

Let me tell you what happens as soon as you anchor up and put the dive flag up down in the Keys...

You have 3-5 different enforcement agencies stop to see what you are doing. I really doubt anybody would take the risk of trying to move such a vast amount of rock.

I have been stopped by FIVE different enforcement entities in one day during aquaculture activities in the Keys. Especially where this site is, directly in front of Holiday Isle and the tiki bar.....and the sandbar....where hundreds of boats party every weekend.

The rock is there, just buried up.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
 
I agree...

I agree...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15215633#post15215633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liverock
Let me tell you what happens as soon as you anchor up and put the dive flag up down in the Keys...

You have 3-5 different enforcement agencies stop to see what you are doing. I really doubt anybody would take the risk of trying to move such a vast amount of rock.

I have been stopped by FIVE different enforcement entities in one day during aquaculture activities in the Keys. Especially where this site is, directly in front of Holiday Isle and the tiki bar.....and the sandbar....where hundreds of boats party every weekend.

The rock is there, just buried up.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

I've seen enforcement agencies out there patrolling the Keys and I have enough dives in the area to know how the sand moves and changes the bottom topography. When those waters get stirred up with 4-6ft seas the visibility can drop to 1 ft...I've been in that sand soup, it's incredible.
 
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