Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

Yam, but it is just as easy to plumb into a CL...just run a bypass...same as on a sump return. And adjusting is just the same as with a return...use valves. You must be forgetting about the bypass thing.

bennyinca,
too bad the quiet-one pumps dont have a better selection between 300 and 700gph. I would say a pump that can do 200gph @ 4-5' head is all you need. And since we are keeping it simple, just run a single hose to a single tank outlet. One elbow or two to hang the return line is all you need. Then spend your money on a closed loop or stream-style pump. More flow, less watts, less heat, less noise.
 
I dunno... I run little flow through the sump on my 55. I have a QuietOne 3000 as a return with about 4' of head and there are about 3 90s in the return line and some hard turns... I don't believe my skimmer is performing to all of its abilities and I think it would benefit with more tank water being transferred down to the sump on a more regular basis...

You mention on a couple of tanks that happen to have been on the TOTM that use low flow, but for the majority of tanks I have seen either online or in person, use much more flow through their sump. I think you are looking at a very narrow range of tanks that imploy the "less is more" technique in this hobby. I think that you have research it a bit more, the "more is more" methodology will reign supreme, and more than likely, for good reason.

How about you ask one of the industries professionals what they feel? This thread is full of hear-say, and there is no scientific evidence behind anything that has been said here. If this method can be proven, then why wouldn't we all step down to a smaller pump that uses less watts? I think there is a reason behind it all.
 
This may sound like a retarded question, but I am new to skimmers and return pumps (as I haven't seen a need for a skimmer or sump on any of my small tanks) and I have a question that I'm sure someone will be able to answer pretty quick.....

Ok here goes: I planned on getting an ASM G3 for a 72 gallon tank. I saw on this thread that it was probably a good Idea to have you skimmer and return pump push the same GPH....... where can I find out how many GPH the ASM G3 skims before I buy it?? I just want to see if I match them up is there going to be a crazy turnover in my tank..... Is it bad to have to much turnover??
 
well I have one TUNZE stream 6100 at the moment and will probebly add another if I go to 180. But looking at cost and numbers I may go for another 120.
 
Well SHO, we see mant tanks over here that employ the more is more ideal because that is the methodology that has spead so much over here. Prehaps you should look at just european style tanks, you might find many more of them are run with lower sump flow. Its just not as common over here.
 
Maybe it just doesn't make a difference :D Like if the water goes slow through the sump then the skimmer skims more junk out of less water....but if the sump is moving faster it takes less junk out of more water...get it:lol: Maybe thats why people have good success with low sump returns and fast ones.
 
NOLACLS - I think the point is that most of the crud in our tanks ends up at the water surface, which is why surface skimming is so important. A properly designed overflow will skim just that top layer, so the water going to the sump tends to be very protein-rich. If a large percentage of that water flows through the sump before the skimmer can grab it (90% in my case), then when the water is returned to the tank, it gets mixed in with the rest of the water and you temporarily lose the ability to skim those proteins until they rise to the top again.

My new pump and the plumbing parts I need should come today, so I'm going to work on this over the weekend and I'll let you know how much if any difference it makes in my skimmate production.
 
Thanks for this thread!!

I have a little 29 with an ecosystem sump refugium that is run using a Titanium T1. This pump is barely enough to handle the overflow and my gate valves need to be tuned JUST right.

I was going to add a few powerheads, but now I might just get one more Titanium T2 fo a closed loop with a SCWD. . . .

On my bigger tank project, I was planning only a pump strong enough to get water from the basement sump back the the display, and one Titanium T4 for the closed loop. Between the two that should create plenty of flow.

One question: how do you compensate for multiple oputlots of therturn; which reduce output to teh inside of the tank? With one outlet the flow is vry concentrated, with two it seems much less. If you wan to tdirect current you need a few outlets. . . .wouldn't that require a much larger pump than the same pump with one outlet?
 
Yeah I know mikester...I kinda agree with that to and im thinking of running my new tank like that from the get go. I was just throwing that out there for fun and food for thought :D

I am thinking about running a blueline HD70 for a sump return and on my skimmer to. I figure the sump return would have more 'head" and slow the flow more than the one on the MR3 skimmer (am I wrong). If the 70 was doing 1500 on my tank for a sump return it would turn the 280 over 5 or so times and hour. I will also have some sort of seq pump on a CL dong 4-5000 gph. Add the CL and sump return up and the turnover is up to 23 or so times an hour. Sounds good to yall :D I just cant see me going as low as some lol
 
old95er said:


One question: how do you compensate for multiple oputlots of therturn; which reduce output to teh inside of the tank? With one outlet the flow is vry concentrated, with two it seems much less. If you wan to tdirect current you need a few outlets. . . .wouldn't that require a much larger pump than the same pump with one outlet?

No idea...I am hoping to run four 3/4 loc line returns in my tank....so I hope a HD70 would do that well. I figure if its doing 1500gph you can just divide by 4 and see what each nozzle will be putting out.
 
I think the point is that most of the crud in our tanks ends up at the water surface, which is why surface skimming is so important. "A properly designed overflow will skim just that top layer, so the water going to the sump tends to be very protein-rich. If a large percentage of that water flows through the sump before the skimmer can grab it (90% in my case), then when the water is returned to the tank, it gets mixed in with the rest of the water and you temporarily lose the ability to skim those proteins until they rise to the top again." -mikester

I couldnt have explained it better! That was my theory too as to how my cousin's skimmer is actually making more now that he is using the 'low-flow'. What are you planning to do now? What pump are you getting? I am interested obviously...WHATCHA DOIN? LOL.

As for spilitting the flow up w/o halving the flow every time...thats what wave valves are for. www.oceansmotions.com. That way, you can use a 500gph pump and four or eight outlets, and hit each area with a pulsing current at the full 500gph...just not the the same time.
 
suffice to say, I didn't like the ocean's motion. I had one on a closed loop and have since sold it... and got rid of the closed loop too.
 
Great thread......I've learned alot!
Unfortunately, I had my tank drilled already. I would have definately done things different with these new understandings on low-flow skimming. Yesterday in fact, I set everyting up in the living room. The drain noise together with the return pump hmmmmmmmmm (Mag 9.5) is unaccepatble.

Today I guess, I'll be tearing it all down and back to the basement to redo. Any one interested in a new Mag 9.5?

Somehow, I need to figure out a CL from the existing 4-1" bulkhead arrangement. Two centered on the back wall (drains to sump) and returns in each top corner. Any thoughts would be appraciated.

Great thread!!!!!
 
Awesome Info!
Herbert.......thanks for getting this thread going....... I could use all of your help in getting my flow figured out.

I am in the process of setting up my Oceanic 140 RR tank. It is my intention to be able to keep everything from soft corals to clams. I am trying to figure out what size pumps do i need (return and water movement). Should I plan on a closed loop? Spray bar? As you can tell i am really new to this and of course get conflicting info.

I appreciate any and all help!

Jeff
 
Well, I made the switch this weekend - or phase 1 at least. I removed my Ampmaster from my closed loop (good riddance!) and swapped out the big Sequence pump with a Blueline BL1100. The Blueline runs through my chiller and to a single return in the tank, and it's flowing about 600 gph. I used a Maxijet 1200 to feed my skimmer, which worked out perfectly (I didn't even have to adjust the gate valve).

So far, I am very encouraged by this change. Almost everything about it has been positive. First of all, my temperature without the lights on dropped 2 degrees last night, and it was one of the warmest nights we've had yet this year. I was halfway through the photocycle today before my chiller ran for the first time - and that's just because I don't have enough ventilation in my canopy. I have a few more fans I've been meaning to add, and if I don't add any other pumps I bet I can keep the chiller from running at all.

The flow through the tank from the smaller pump is very nice. I was a little worried about cutting back from 2 returns (1 in each corner) to just a single one, but it has worked out just fine. I'm still getting enough flow so there is no film on the surface, and it's still enough that I get the all-important "glimmer" lines from my halides. The majority of the tank's flow comes from a pair of Tunze 6000 Streams, and they sure get the job done.

The skimmer has only been running a few hours in this configuration, but it is a foaming beast - I've honestly never seen this much foam production out of my Deltec. And it already skimmed better than any skimmer I've had before - I can't wait to see what it does now. I dropped the Maxijet feed pump into the first chamber of the sump, where the raw overflow water comes in, so I'm getting the dirtiest water right to the skimmer. I don't know which factor was more important - feeding the skimmer from the first chamber, or the lower flow rate, but it's already obvious to me that it is skimming differently.

I've only noticed a couple of negatives, which should be easy to deal with. First is noise - this Blueline pump is much louder than my Sequence was. I'm almost sure that part of that is from the pump being new. I had one of these before, and I was going to return it because it was so loud, but after a week or two of "breakin" it quieted down considerably. So I'm hoping that will be the case here. Most of the noise is actually my sump resonating, so I am going to put a small piece of flex tubing between the pump and the hard plumbing to see if I can isolate the resonanace. I can do that since I'm not trying to run a massive return pump. ;)

The other "negative" probably has nothing to do with this change. I have a lot more detritus settling on one side of the tank since I removed the closed loop. Well, that was the reason I added the closed loop in the first place, so I'm not surprised. But, I think the problem is because my aquascaping on that side of the tank is blocking a lot of the flow from the Tunze, so I am going to rework that side of the tank. The other side, where the Tunze isn't obstructed, looks very clean.

I am hoping that by fixing the aquascaping, I can avoid the need for the closed loop altogether. If I decide to stick with the closed loop, I doubt I will use the Sequence - it's just way too much. What I'm thinking about doing (only if I decided the CL is needed) is getting a small Eheim for the return, and move the Blueline pump to the closed loop. I could send it through the chiller on the CL, and then to an OM Squirt to alternate the flow among my 4 outlets. I think that would work very well, but I'm going to try it without the CL for awhile just to make sure I need one.

So as it stands now, I still have over 4000 gph (27x turnover) of flow and it only uses 100w total. Not too shabby!
 
good thread, looks very interesting,

when dealing with proteins, and skimmers, I can dig the low flow idea, and makes good perfect sense

but what you guys think about how the low flow will affect things like carbon/phosban reactors, UV units, heaters, ect, will the low flow affect these in a good way too,

and finally, how to properly determine the proper flow,

so how I'm I going to run the eductor now :D

thx all,

sam
 
Nice thread. I am setting up a 215 gallon reef ready with Oceanic 3 sump. Have been debating the return pump size. The return will be going through spray bars behind the rocks to prevent dead spots and will have a Tunze 6100 on each side of the tank with 7095 controller for wave, etc. Going to get an ASM G-4 skimmer for the sump that uses a Sedra 5000 pump. The return pump will be outside of the sump. Considering a Magdrive 7 or 9. Any suggestions???
 
Mikester,
You did the same thing I did a few months ago. The complexity, electricity, and heat of the closed loop just wasn't worth it. Even with valves, and unions at the closed loop pump, it was still dificult to clean. And I honestly think the stream looks better then the pvc from my ocean's motions unit. Just dropped in one Tunze stream, and saving up for one more. Between using less electricity on pumps, and having the chiller sit in idle mode now, my electric bill dropped by $30/month. The tank is also a lot quieter now. I'm using a T3/T4 hybrid for the return pump.

Yam
 
cl pumps

cl pumps

Ive just been tagging along reading since the beginning of this thread. I have slowed down my return i=on my 75 gal tank from a litle giant 4 pressure rated pump at 12oo gph roughy to a sen 700.

Now my question is this. Is my little giant 4 pressure pump too large for a closed loop sysem on my 75 gal tank. I currenty have a mag5 running an internaly plumbed loop that was put under the rock and deep sand bed, At what point do I reach too much flow in my tank? the mag 5 just isnt enough, but worked good with the higher flow returns. Now that they are slowed down, how do I calculate how to plumb, how many outputs,gph etc for a closed loop?

Btw, this has been one of the more eye opening threads Ive read in a long time.

joe
 
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