Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

[ssbreef]

Sorry I have not read through the posts, but I run my setup this way.
1200 GPH Genx hooked up to my becket skimmer, and a mag5 return to my tank at 4 feet. I also run a refuge and find that by leaving the water in my sump/fuge longer I can pull out allot more crap before returning the water to my system. I find that by doing it this way the water I'm returning has all passed through my skimmer and has sat in my fuge before returning it.

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

Im not sure about the PAN WORLD pump NexDog, as its not in the records...so I dont know its capacities. FWIW, even with a chart/graph you still never really know until you set it up. Pipe diameter, bends, and sometimes marketing hype can change the result from what you expected. FWIW, I did notice the 40PX is half the wattage, only 20% less flow, and would prolly be enough. Those RC skimmers are designed only have 1x the tank flow in gph...so with your head on the 40PX, you should get about 200-250gph...if this is fed into your skimmer, that would give you a perfect match. OR, you can always get the 50 and put a bypass on it to reduce the flow (always do a bypass rather than a restrictor on a pump). As for the chiller, we went over this before on the thread, but it would be in your best interest if you did not run the chiller on the return line. Its a waste of energy, and why would you want to run a chiller on a line that has a pump which is in turn adding heat because of all the extra head-loss? This sounds like a big tank, so adding an extra closed loop on either the main display or a closed loop on the sump would be the best option. Then the chiller could be powered with a simple powerhead (just like your reactor). OR, if you havent bought the chiller yet...get a drop-in and put it in your sump. Those make the most sense.

I would also suggest using a different tank for the sump if possible. A 75g is shorter, costs the same, and provides you with more practical space for a sump on a tank that size. Considering the size skimmer you are going to be getting, it looks like you could use the extra refugium space should your stocking levels get higher. Or, you might consider going even larger like DNA. It never hurts to have extra space left over. Most sumps are kept shorter and wider for easy acess, so I just dont see the 65 being practical. It only has a 36"x18" footprint.

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

Timbor, you can cut it down to a Mag 3 or even a 2. Just enough to keep the skimmer fed. I would also suggest something other than a mag. if internal, use an eheim, like a 1250. Less heat will get spilled into the tank, and they use less electricity. If external, you have many options, but just remember to keep it low. 100-200gph going through the overflow will not only save your ears, but take less coin out of your wallet for the monthly bill.

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

ssbreef, thanks for the info. I am curious>> Macros seem to like strong flow. They grow faster, prolly because they are able to absorb more then. I am curious if you have any extra circulation in the fuge itself to suppliment the low throughput, or if you leave it as is.

It has been my one concern through all this 'low-flow' reworking that I do not restrict the effectiveness of someones refugium by limiting the flow to this type of filtration which many suggest should get 10-20x the tanks volume in turnover. Is it simply the current that makes the macro happy?, in which case adding a powerhead into the refugium would do...or is there actually a nutrient exporting level that needs a higher tank turnover to be effective?

 

[Timbor]

Hey Herbert,
How is the performance on the mag pumps? I havent had any luck finding the eheim 1250 online at any canadian stores... I did find it online at big al's, but it was $150(cdn)... I can get a mag3 for about $67(cdn)... so right now its not really worth it to get the eheim on my budget (student life is fun!)

Tim

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

mags tend to run hot, use more electricity than others, etc. I have had a few and been unhappy with every one.

I would spend the extra little bit for the eheim. The extra $80 is nothing compared to the overall expenses of a reef. If you cant shell out for the extra little bit to get a good pump or heater...how are you going to buy corals?

 

[NexDog]

Those RC skimmers are designed only have 1x the tank flow in gph...so with your head on the 40PX, you should get about 200-250gph...if this is fed into your skimmer, that would give you a perfect match. OR, you can always get the 50 and put a bypass on it to reduce the flow (always do a bypass rather than a restrictor on a pump).

I don't want to play with the by-pass unless I have to as teeing off the correct amount of flow would be a guessing game. If those RC skimmers are only meant to take 1x tank capacity, what are the consequences of running too much flow into them? Too much flow equalling too much to skim so in essence cancelling out any recirculation?

As for the chiller, we went over this before on the thread, but it would be in your best interest if you did not run the chiller on the return line. Its a waste of energy, and why would you want to run a chiller on a line that has a pump which is in turn adding heat because of all the extra head-loss? This sounds like a big tank, so adding an extra closed loop on either the main display or a closed loop on the sump would be the best option. Then the chiller could be powered with a simple powerhead (just like your reactor). OR, if you havent bought the chiller yet...get a drop-in and put it in your sump. Those make the most sense.

My logic being the hottest water is flowing out of the return pump so that is where teh chiller would be most effective? I won't be doing any closed loops until I know more about plumbing and have more plumbing experience so my only other option is running the chiller off a powerhead. Or maybe I can run any pump through the chiller, CA reactor and Phosphate reactor?

I would also suggest using a different tank for the sump if possible. A 75g is shorter, costs the same, and provides you with more practical space for a sump on a tank that size. Considering the size skimmer you are going to be getting, it looks like you could use the extra refugium space should your stocking levels get higher. Or, you might consider going even larger like DNA. It never hurts to have extra space left over. Most sumps are kept shorter and wider for easy acess, so I just dont see the 65 being practical. It only has a 36"x18" footprint.

We don't exactly get US standard type tanks here. The 65g tank I mentioned is:

1200mmx450mmx4500

Which I'm rationalising as:

47"x18"x18" / 231 = 66g

Maybe you call that a 75g in the US.

 

[Timbor]

It's not that I absolutely cant afford it, but that I have to be more cautious about where I spend my money. I'm not planning on going huge right away, just trying to keep it small and simple... when I'm done school and work for a living, $80 wont seem like such a big deal... but right now, it seems that way
I'm still looking into it though.

Tim

btw... $80 would get me a couple nice corals!

 

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

NexDog
Well, the specs on the skimmer say 1 to 1.5x the capacity of the tank for flowthrough...and the max capacity is 250g. So, 375gph would be the suggested maximum throughput on that skimmer, and the minimum about 250gph, but considering many buy skimmers that are rated double what they need, Im sure that 125gph would be enough. If you are still worried, maybe you should consider spending a little more and getting a larger skimmer. Its pretty common for people to do so.

Beyond that, I dont see how toying with a bypass would effect that maximum...it would do the opposite. I didnt mean for the bypass to be feeding the skimmer. When I say bypass, I mean that the sump return pump has a "T" on the output (on its side so the return to the tank can have a straight shot back to the tank). One of the outlets, the upward facing one, is the return to the tank. The other, coming out of the side, gets a ball or gate valve attached to it. This allows you to turn down the water flow to the tank, and therefore the overflow's flow, by opening up the valve and letting some of the water from the pump return to the sump. It is better than just putting a restrictor on the output of the pump because that causes extra wear&tear on the pump.

As for your skimmer, I take it that you want to run your overflow directly into the skimmer. I wouldnt do this. Overflows tend to 'burp' or pass larger bubbles in cycles that would disrupt the skimmer. The skimmer should be fed of a seperate powerhead or from the main sump pump (another "T" and a valve) to keep things stable.

The closed loop might seem to make sense if it is run after the pump which makes heat...but then again, that chiller is adding alot of headpressure to the pump which is causing the buildup in heat anyways. Putting the chiller on the output of the pump would make sense if the heat output of the pump was great...like a boiler, but in this case, the system can be treated as a whole. Running the chiller on its own closed loop would eliminate back-pressure on the pump...reducing overall heat. Also, in the event that your return pump fails, or is shut off, your chiller can still operate and not run dry like it would if it were plumbed in-line with the sump return.

Running the Ca reactor, Phos Reactor, and the chiller on one pump could work. Just keep in mind that you will have to run it in this order: PUMP> Chiller > Phos > Ca. This is because the chiller needs higher flow than the Phos, and the Phos needs higher flow than the Ca. The chiller will prolly get 200+ gph. The Phos will get 100gph about. The Ca reactor will have a few drops per minute. So after each part, you will have to put in another bypass. That way, after the chiller, most of the water can go back into the sump and some goes on to the Phos Reactor. That way, after the Phos Reactor, most of the water can go back to the sump and some goes to the Ca Reactor. Follow?

 

[Rivalpc]

Ghod I love this board. I came to research upgrading my system because I thought it could be better or should be better. Having read this post, i find the exact info I need!!

Thanks!

 

[NexDog]

NexDog
Well, the specs on the skimmer say 1 to 1.5x the capacity of the tank for flowthrough...and the max capacity is 250g. So, 375gph would be the suggested maximum throughput on that skimmer, and the minimum about 250gph, but considering many buy skimmers that are rated double what they need, Im sure that 125gph would be enough. If you are still worried, maybe you should consider spending a little more and getting a larger skimmer. Its pretty common for people to do so.

Beyond that, I dont see how toying with a bypass would effect that maximum...it would do the opposite. I didnt mean for the bypass to be feeding the skimmer. When I say bypass, I mean that the sump return pump has a "T" on the output (on its side so the return to the tank can have a straight shot back to the tank). One of the outlets, the upward facing one, is the return to the tank. The other, coming out of the side, gets a ball or gate valve attached to it. This allows you to turn down the water flow to the tank, and therefore the overflow's flow, by opening up the valve and letting some of the water from the pump return to the sump. It is better than just putting a restrictor on the output of the pump because that causes extra wear&tear on the pump.

As for your skimmer, I take it that you want to run your overflow directly into the skimmer. I wouldnt do this. Overflows tend to 'burp' or pass larger bubbles in cycles that would disrupt the skimmer. The skimmer should be fed of a seperate powerhead or from the main sump pump (another "T" and a valve) to keep things stable.

The closed loop might seem to make sense if it is run after the pump which makes heat...but then again, that chiller is adding alot of headpressure to the pump which is causing the buildup in heat anyways. Putting the chiller on the output of the pump would make sense if the heat output of the pump was great...like a boiler, but in this case, the system can be treated as a whole. Running the chiller on its own closed loop would eliminate back-pressure on the pump...reducing overall heat. Also, in the event that your return pump fails, or is shut off, your chiller can still operate and not run dry like it would if it were plumbed in-line with the sump return.

Running the Ca reactor, Phos Reactor, and the chiller on one pump could work. Just keep in mind that you will have to run it in this order: PUMP> Chiller > Phos > Ca. This is because the chiller needs higher flow than the Phos, and the Phos needs higher flow than the Ca. The chiller will prolly get 200+ gph. The Phos will get 100gph about. The Ca reactor will have a few drops per minute. So after each part, you will have to put in another bypass. That way, after the chiller, most of the water can go back into the sump and some goes on to the Phos Reactor. That way, after the Phos Reactor, most of the water can go back to the sump and some goes to the Ca Reactor. Follow?

Many thanks for the response. This is so helpful because I can determine the Skimmer and main pump in one hit and that's a few less things to have to think about.

Okay, so I won't feed the skimmer direct from the overflows. I intend to drill the sump at both ends so skimmer and return pumps are external. I'll get the CS8-5-RC skimmer rated for 300g and feed it with a separate pump rated at 250gph. I would like to stick with the 50PX because I'm scared that the skimmer pump will outpump the return after headloss etc. I know the skimmer won't be processing all the water coming out the overflows but if I can aim for 75% I have a safe margin. Do you think erring on the side of caution is wise in this situation?

I think for the Chiller, Phos and Calcium, I'll just run off 3 separate powerheads in the main chamber. I think this would be maximising their efficiency.

Almost there on this sump setup - thanks for your input!

 

[fishnugget]

This thread makes me think

This thread makes me think

I have a 210 powered by an Ampmaster 2100. I am about to build a new sump with refugium. My current system constantly has bubbles. Noise and heat are the main reasons I have been using the Ampmaster. With an all glass mega flow, I have @ 600gph each going through system. Does anyone have a recommendation of pump that would do a great job, eliminate bubbles, silent and no heat added? It seems my flow may may too strong. I have Tunze in tank.

 

[bergzy]

Re: This thread makes me think

Re: This thread makes me think

Does anyone have a recommendation of pump that would do a great job, eliminate bubbles, silent and no heat added? It seems my flow may may too strong. I have Tunze in tank.

i run an ampmaster 3000 on my 180g and i have zero microbubbles. the ampmaster should not be causing any microbubbles...if it truly is the cause, you might want to contact the manafactuer or the place you bought it from.

the key to not having microbubbles in the main display is to:

have the water level high enough so no 'vortex' of air is sucked into the powerful main return pump. if you can not get the water level any higher, you may want to get a pvc elbow and tilt it down to try and stop air being sucked in.

if that is not the source of microbubbles...
then it may be coming from the drain line. in this case, i 'burp' the air as it enters the sump. i use a pvc T and have a section of pipe going up like a chimmney to let excess trapped air that tagged along the overflow.

next big source are those wonderfully bubbly machines we call protein skimmers. find a way to decrease the amount of microbubbles leaving the skimmer. on euroreefs (never used one) but i think there is a foam collar that helps with this. if the foam collar just isnt doing it...i would place the entire skimmer base into a bucket of some kind and drill a lot of small holes that are below the water level. this should help with decresing the bubbles. with a beckett (what i use), i just aspirate the top so that the exhaust water contain big bubbles...the big ones float up and pop when they reach the surface. no microbubbles here!

if all this fails...

you need killer baffling...

not the regular up and down panes of glass or plexiglass...

my method uses live rock to create a very complex maze work for the water going to the main return pump. all this nooks and crannies, valleys, up here down there...kills every trace of microbubbles. better than any baffle i have ever, ever made or used...

but...this is just me and i tend to not follow trends, i just work things out in my own little world...you can try it if you like!

 

[Fursphere]

Ditto about the Ampmaster 3000. I'm running one as well as my return pump (only pump!), and its not causing my any problems and / or microbubbles.

 

[fishnugget]

Great advice

Great advice

My return line are just crashing water into my sump. I need to figure out what to put on the ends of the return lines in the sump to stop the crashing. This is what is craeting all the bubbles.

 

[Bax]

Drop it to the botom of your return area with a T on the bottom, really helps dispurse the inflow and releases large bubbles insted of the small ones. JME

 

[Fursphere]

Re: Great advice

Re: Great advice

My return line are just crashing water into my sump. I need to figure out what to put on the ends of the return lines in the sump to stop the crashing. This is what is craeting all the bubbles.

How are the intakes to the drains? dursos?

I had the same problem with mine, and last night I got it all worked up. If the drains are sucking air, you're going to get a lot of noise in the sump no matter what you do. You have to get rid of the air bubbles.

 

[fishnugget]

Yes dursos

Yes dursos

No noise in sump just bubbles

 

[RGibson]

You will get read of the air bubbles if you used a smaller return pump and have more water movement in the reef tank by having close loops with penducters and tunze streams. My 180 reef tank i used penducters and thay work very well at a low cost.MRC has penducters at $25.00 each.I used two one at each in of the tank with a Iwaki MD55RLT pump which gives all the water movement i need.For a return pump a eheim 1260 is used.

 

[RGibson]

By using a smaller return pump you will fine that your skimmer has more output then you had before because the water is moving slower in the sump.