why only 2 clowns?

First let me say that I don't really condone putting "sea lions and sharks" in ANY tank. I tend to be overly sarcastic at times to try to drive a point.

I think you need to clarify your position and attitude in your posts. In the same previous post you vehemently defend your position and talk about sea lions and sharks. You defend one as fact and one as sarcasm. These types of inconsistencies fuel the fire of conflict.

I do think that it's not really ANYONES business what you do with your tank. I don't condone putting sharks in reef tanks, but I'd never be a critic of it either. We aren't talking about "Endangered Species" here. In most cases we aren't even talking about animals removed from the ocean. We are talking about CLOWN FISH and ANEMONES, which most of the time were born in a bucket in some guy named scott's basement. I do realize that you can go out and buy "Wild Caught Clown Fish", but for the most part (and all of mine) are tank raised. As far as BTA's go, I don't even know if you can buy a "Wild Caught BTA", but I know I've never seen one.

I think here you are seriously mistaking the origin of many fish and anemones. In your first post, you mention wiping out your clowns "from something called 'clownfish disease'". First, if you want to argue your position of authority, you might have more success by thinking that most on here know that as brooklynella - and common in WILD CAUGHT clownfish. Next, while many clownfish are captive breed, there are still large numbers of clownfish brought into the country. Even if you only purchase captive breed clowns and proceed to run through them at a rate of 20/month because you have the desire and money to do so - those fish are then taken out of the supply chain which potentially may be filled by wild caught. What you do DOES impact everyone else, and that is why we are coming down on your for your position here. For BTA's - you can most definitely purchase many wild-caught specimens. To think that there is any species that we can keep in our tank that is exclusively captive propagated/bred is shortsighted.

Why arent you tree huggers jumping all over the people who make "Frozen Silversides" or "Feeder Fish"? It is the all time EXTREME killing of live fish that your bleeding hearts love to try to put an end to. Oh wait, it becomes okay when its for feeding your anemones????
I think you are starting to grasp at straws and bringing in extra unsubstantiated name calling arguments thereby creating more drama and confusing the issue.

I just think it's unfair for a bunch of people who "think they know what's best for you" to force feed their views down everyone's throat.
See above, what you do affects us all in some fashion or another. What would happen if the "tree huggers" in D.C. get ahold of your ideas and take them to be the norm - how would that affect the ability to continue this hobby?

Let's just assume your right for a minute. Maybe I should "get a conscience" and bag up all of my clown fish, and let them go in the ocean. Guess what.....THEY ALL DIE! Not a single one of my clown fish would last 9 minutes in the ocean, but they live a pretty sweet life in my basement, and if all 20 of them died tomorrow, I'd go buy 20 more the next day. I may even go out and buy a breeding pair to help others with their "dirty little secrets" of wanting more than 2 clowns. Shoot I might even let people buy the babies to feed to other fish.
While I would agree that very few captive bred clownfish would survive in the ocean for a wide variety of reasons, I would also implore that once a wild caught fish is taken from the ocean its likelihood of survival upon reintroduction to the ocean is also minimal. I do not see if a matter of origin as much as captivity.

All I ever ask is that people keep in mind what we are talking about. Also understand that my feelings change drastically when we are talking about removing animals from the ocean to put in a tank.
So besides having a pretty glass box, do you have other passions? Many people here devote huge amounts of time and energy into keeping their passion going strong. Put yourself in their shoes - how would it be if we came to your area and started a rebellion against known theories? Based on your previous posts I am not sure you may take much offense, but most would.

I really just hope that you don't take the same attitude about cows, or corn, because I'm a huge fan of their relentless slaughter to bring steak and potatoes to my dinner plate.
Once again, blurring the lines of this debate by poking the fire with a stick attempting to get some sparks out of it. This is not in good taste.

Now go have fun with your 2 pairs of clowns.
I plan on it.
 
I'd check who is behind the emerging research.
If you had any sources for your wild claims of conspiracy theories we might perhaps take you seriously, but for now you are just throwing wild claims around.

I do still love all of you and hope that we can stay friends, but I do feel like I have to defend my position. Talk to you soon.

Chris

You catch more flies with honey.

I am with Todd with this one. I frankly do not care who you are, where you work, what you supposedly know. Your true colors have already been shown - rash, selfish, irresponsible, unreasonable, and unable to have compassion for anything besides your self and furthering your own agenda. This board is a place for people to come and learn. Some of the people whom I respect most on this board have chimed in on this thread against your opinion - yet on numerous occasion I have seen their opinions changed when confronted with facts and logic from a differing view. You need to keep an open mind and stay sensible for this forum to be productive in any manner - both of which you are not.
 
Applied Animal Behavior Science

Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress

K. P. Chandroo, I. J. H. Duncan and R. D. Moccia,
Department of Animal and Poultry Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ont., Canada N1G 2W1

Available online 12 April 2004.
Abstract
In contrast to other major forms of livestock agriculture, there is a paucity of scientific information on the welfare of fish raised under intensive aquacultural conditions. This reflects an adherence to the belief that these animals have not evolved the salient biological characteristics that are hypothesised to permit sentience. In this review, we evaluate the scientific evidence for the existence of sentience in fish, and in particular, their ability to experience pain, fear and psychological stress. Teleost fish are considered to have marked differences in some aspects of brain structure and organization as compared to tetrapods, yet they simultaneously demonstrate functional similarities and a level of cognitive development suggestive of sentience. Anatomical, pharmacological and behavioural data suggest that affective states of pain, fear and stress are likely to be experienced by fish in similar ways as in tetrapods. This implies that fish have the capacity to suffer, and that welfare consideration for farmed fish should take these states into account. We suggest that the concept of animal welfare can be applied legitimately to fish. It is therefore appropriate to recognize and study the welfare of farmed fish.



Applied Animal Behavior Science

Volume 83, Issue 2, Pages 153-162 (5 September 2003)

The evidence for pain in fish: the use of morphine as an analgesic

Lynne U Sneddon
Accepted 8 April 2003.

Abstract
This paper discusses the evidence for pain perception in fish and presents new data on morphine analgesia in fish. Recent anatomical and electrophysiological studies have demonstrated that fish are capable of nociception, the simple detection of a noxious, potentially painful stimulus and the reflex response to this. To prove pain perception, it must be demonstrated that an animal’s behaviour is adversely affected by a potentially painful event and this must not be a reflex response. The present study examined the acute effects of administering a noxious chemical to the lips of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) to assess what changes occurred in behaviour and physiology. There was no difference in swimming activity or use of cover when comparing the noxiously stimulated individuals with the controls. The noxiously treated individuals performed anomalous behaviours where they rocked on either pectoral fin from side to side and they also rubbed their lips into the gravel and against the sides of the tank. Opercular beat rate (gill or ventilation rate) increased almost double fold after the noxious treatment whereas the controls only showed a 30% increase. Administering morphine significantly reduced the pain-related behaviours and opercular beat rate and thus morphine appears to act as an analgesic in the rainbow trout. It is concluded that these pain-related behaviours are not simple reflexes and therefore there is the potential for pain perception in fish.
 
Both of the sources that you quote are "known theories" they are considered both fact AND FICTION by the outside world.

Here's the response.

The study's reception among the fishing industry and other scientists wasn't entirely smooth sailing. One critique dismissed the findings, arguing that fish lack the brain complexity to feel pain. Others chalked it up to a natural physiological response to a threatening situation. Animal rights advocates, on the other hand, saw it as proof positive of the inhumanity of recreational and industrial fishing.

Once again theory is in the eye of the beholder.

Believe what you want. I'm not saying that YOUR beliefs are wrong. I just don't think that someone should be led to believe they can't have 2 (or more) pairs of clown fish. Nor should they be afraid to try it.

That's been my position the whole time. It still is. I don't think anyone is wrong....until they start imposing their theory as the only fact. Someone asked why they can't have more than 2 clowns in their tank. Someone said it was an exception. I don't agree that it's an exception. I think it can be a rule if you are willing to try it and deal with the fact that it might not work. Why is that statement wrong?

If it weren't for people who pushed the limits we wouldn't even have a hobby to sit and argue about.
 
The study's reception among the fishing industry and other scientists wasn't entirely smooth sailing. One critique dismissed the findings, arguing that fish lack the brain complexity to feel pain. Others chalked it up to a natural physiological response to a threatening situation. Animal rights advocates, on the other hand, saw it as proof positive of the inhumanity of recreational and industrial fishing.

Once again theory is in the eye of the beholder.

This still does not support the assertion that it is science fact that fish do not feel pain. Clearly it is being debated.

I don't have a problem with killing and eating animals. We farm and eat too many of them but that's to our own detriment. (heart disease, obesity etc...)
I do have a problem with an apparent lack of respect for animals or a sense of responsibility for their well being under our care. My fish aren't "just fish" to me. I worry about them on hot days and feel stressed when there's an electrical storm. I feel responsible for them and believe it is my responsibility to make every effort to do what is in their best interest. If our fish were to die we would mourn their loss and I know my GF would cry.

Of course we enjoy them. Why would anyone start up a tank and bother with all the maintenance if they didn't like it? But we are attached to our fish and feel responsible for them and to them in a way that you do not. In your own words: "I am not a feeler..." That's too bad for you. You cannot equate the rest of us to you simply because we enjoy having clown fish. One clown is not a modular replacement for another, not for me and I don't think it is for the rest of the people posting in this thread either. That's the difference between you and us.
 
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I think it can be a rule if you are willing to try it and deal with the fact that it might not work. Why is that statement wrong?
Please consider what you say more carefully. The rule of thumb for clowns is "just one pair". This is the solution with the highest probability of success. If we have to be "willing...to deal with the fact that it might not work" you are already admitting that this can be an unreliable solution. It might be OK to say that it can work out some of the time but this can hardly make it a rule. We already know that clowns are territorial and that they will fight if they are crowded together. This is a feature of the species which you recognize because you admit that it might not work out. Thus we can say that multiple clowns as a general rule is a bad idea although in some cases they appear to get along.

Finally I want to say that I have reservations about how well your clowns actually do get along. Previously you have stated that:

"I'd also like to be 100% crystal clear that I am not a feeler.... These are fish to me. That's it. They are pretty little fish that I enjoy watching darting in and out of their anemones. That's all. If one dies. I will get another. Probably 2 actually just so I have a back up.

If fish mortality is incidental to you and fish exist in your tank only for "MY ENJOYMENT" to be replaced without any concern for their welfare or well being how can we take what you say at face value? You have literally told us that you have no concern for the welfare of the fish or their deaths yet we are expected to believe that the multiple pairs of clowns you house are getting along perfectly well?

I would ask at this point that you provide some documentation of this. Photos would be a great way to show us that your clowns actually are getting along. Clear close ups that would show us fins etc are strongly preferred.
 
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I guess what I'm saying is although, I'm not a 20 year vet, I don't feel as though I'm "new" to the hobby either. I understand, some of you will argue that to the death, but again, it's my opinion. don't know if it would hold up in court.

Ask any teenager if they're all grown up. They will say that they are. Ask the 60 year old man across the street if the teenager is all grown up and he will laugh at you.

Now the science......

FISH DO NOT FEEL PAIN!

You do not have the science to back that up.

FISH DO NOT EXPERIENCE EMOTION!

You don't even have the science to back that up.

Fish are the most primitive creatures that most of us will ever come into contact with.

Fish have been here much much longer than we have. It can be argued that they are much more evolved than us.

They do not suffer. They don't feel pain. They don't feel aggression. They don't "feel" anything.

That is not a guess. That's science.

That is not good solid science. It is simply your own flawed opinion.

Their brains do not have a "developed" cerebral cortex. As a matter of fact, you can remove the entire brain of a fish leaving only the brain stem and spinal cord, and it would live quite normal. They understand SURVIVAL. Eat to live. Live to mate. That's it.

Please post the link to the study that removed a fishes brain and it continued its life as normal. Please do.


That being said.... I AM MAKING A PRETTY BOX FULL OF SALT WATER AND MINDLESS FISH FOR MY OWN ENJOYMENT. It's sad to me that anyone here can't admit the same thing.

They are not mindless. When you kill your next tank full, take one of the fish and cut its head open. I bet you find a brain inside.


I don't have any false perceptions that I am furthing the science of home aquatics, or that because I have 20 clown fish, 18 people will have to do without them. I just dont understand why you do.

No one has a problem with the number of fish you have. In fact Kerusso316 has more clowns than you do. It's your treatment of the clowns that's in question.


My answer is still the same. If you want to buy 300 clown fish and put them in a 5 gallon nano, it's your money. I would actually go one step further and say learn to breed them so you can propogate your own. Your home aquarium is limited only to the lenth, depth, width, and capacity of your WALLET (and your imagination).

With an attitude like that you should probably switch hobbies to something like stamp collecting.
 
On the note that fish dont feel pain,where does this come from?Let me ask you this:

If you take a fish out of the water,poke it with a needle,will it just sit in your hand and let you poke it?If you leave the fish in the water cupped in your hand,and you poke it with a needle,will it let you keep poking it?

If you can please post a link to where fish dont feel pain.So far you have no links to support this theroy...Let alone any of your theroys.

And who said we can go crazy and start taking fish's brains out and they will live just fine!Thats CRAZY talken!
 
Do Fish Feel Pain?

By Dr. James D. Rose, University of Wyoming

Do fish, like humans, experience pain and suffering? People hold very differing beliefs about this question. Some would believe that if fish react to stimuli that would cause a person to feel pain that the fish must also be feeling pain. Others assume that fish are too different from humans for the matter to be of concern. Many people don’t know quite what to think about the issue. Neuroscience research has clarified the neurological and psychological processes that cause the experience of pain, so we can address this question from a large base of factual information.

PAIN IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPERIENCE THAT IS SEPARATE FROM BEHAVIORAL REACTIONS TO INJURIOUS STIMULI

It has become very clear that pain is a psychological experience with both a perceptual aspect and an emotional aspect. The perceptual aspect tells us that we have been injured, like the first sensation when you hit your thumb with a hammer. The emotional aspect is separate as in the suffering that follows after we are first aware of hitting our thumb. But, injurious stimuli do not always lead to the experience of pain. Think of a trip to the dentist. When a dentist injects a local anesthetic into your jaw to block nerve conduction, some of your teeth and a part of your mouth feel numb. When a tooth is then drilled, the sensory nerve cells in the tooth that would normally trigger pain are still excited, but the nerve block prevents activity in these receptors from being sent to the brain, so pain is not felt. In addition, a person’s behavioral reaction to pain is separate from pain experience. We see this separation when a person endures pain without showing any discomfort. On the other hand, people sometimes react behaviorally to injury without any feeling any experience of pain or suffering. This kind of separation between behavioral and psychological responses to injury results from certain forms of damage of the brain or spinal cord. Because the experience of pain is separate from the behavioral response to injury, the term nociception is used to refer to detection of injury by the nervous system (which may or may not lead to pain). Injurious stimuli that usually lead to pain experience are called nociceptive stimuli. The term pain should be used only to refer to the unpleasant psychological experience that can result from a nociceptive stimulus.

REACTIONS TO INJURY ARE PRESENT IN ALL FORMS OF ANIMAL LIFE BUT THESE REACTIONS DO NOT MEAN THAT PAIN IS EXPERIENCED-IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A NOCICEPTIVE STIMULUS TO BE CONSCIOUSLY EXEPERIENCED FOR A BEHAVIORAL REACTION TO OCCUR

In humans, reactions to nociceptive stimuli are usually associated with feelings of pain. Consequently, humans often assume that reactions by animals to nociceptive stimuli mean that these animals experience similar pain. In reality, reactions to nociceptive stimuli are protective responses that can occur in forms of life that are incapable of perceiving pain. The ability to detect and react to nociceptive stimuli is a widespread characteristic of animal life. Single-celled creatures such as an ameba will move away from irritating chemical or mechanical stimuli. These reactions are automatic and because the ameba doesn’t have a nervous system, it has no ability to actually sense the stimulus that causes its reaction or to feel pain. There are many other invertebrate organisms (animals without backbones) that also react to nociceptive stimuli, but with somewhat more complex patterns of escape than an ameba. For example, starfish have a primitive nervous system that interconnects sensory receptors detecting injurious stimuli with muscle cells that cause movements, enabling the starfish to slowly move away from a nociceptive stimulus. The starfish’s nervous system has only a small number of nerve cells. It has no brain, so like the ameba, its reactions are not very precise or complex and it can’t experience, in the way of humans, the stimuli that trigger its reactions. Thus, protective reactions don’t require very complex nervous systems and can occur in animals incapable of perceiving, that is being aware of, the stimuli that cause such reactions.

IN VERTEBRATES, REACTIONS TO INJURIOUS STIMULI ARE CONTROLLED BY THE SPINAL CORD AND BRAINSTEM

Vertebrates generally have more complex nervous systems than invertebrates and vertebrates have a clearly developed brain. This brain receives information from the spinal cord about nociceptive stimuli that contact the body surface. Working together with the spinal cord, the brain generates rapid, coordinated responses that cause the organism to escape these stimuli. These automatically generated responses include withdrawal of the stimulated body part, struggling, locomotion and in some animals, vocalizations. All of these responses are generated by the lower levels of the nervous system, including the brainstem and spinal cord.

HUMAN EXISTENCE IS CEREBRALLY-DOMINATED- A FISH’S EXISTENCE IS BRAINSTEM DOMINATED

Human existence is dominated by functions of the massively developed cerebral hemispheres. Fishes have only primitive cerebral hemispheres and their existence is dominated by brainstem functions. The brains of vertebrate animals differ greatly in structural and functional complexity. Cold-blooded animals, such as fish, frogs, salamanders, lizards and snakes, have simpler brains than warm-blooded vertebrates, the birds and mammals. Fish have the simplest types of brains, of any vertebrates, while humans, have the most complex brains of any species. All mammals have enlarged cerebral hemispheres that are mainly an outer layer of neocortex. Conscious awareness of sensations, emotions and pain in humans depend on our massively-developed neocortex and other specialized brain regions in the cerebral hemispheres. If the cerebral hemispheres of a human are destroyed, a comatose, vegetative state results. Fish, in contrast, have very small cerebral hemispheres that lack neocortex. If the cerebral hemispheres of a fish are destroyed, the fish’s behavior is quite normal, because the simple behaviors of which a fish is capable (including all of its reactions to nociceptive stimuli) depend mainly on the brainstem and spinal cord. Thus, a human’s existence is dominated by the cerebral hemispheres, but a fish is a brainstem-dominated organism.

The capacity to perceive and be aware of sensory stimuli, rather than just react to such stimuli requires a complex brain. In humans, the cerebral hemispheres, especially the neocortex, is the functional system that allows us to be aware of sensory stimuli. If the cortex of the human brain is damaged or made dysfunctional, we lose our awareness of sensations. For example, damage of the visual part of the cortex causes blindness, even though vision-related sensory activity is still occurring in subcortical parts of the brain. If the neocortex is widely damaged we lose our capacity to be aware of our existence in general. This loss of awareness occurs in spite of the fact that the levels of our nervous system below the cerebral hemispheres, the brainstem and spinal cord, can still be functioning and processing signals from sensory stimuli, including injurious stimuli. In a fish, “seeing” is performed by the brainstem and occurs automatically without awareness. Consequently, a fish’s visual behavior is quite normal if the small cerebral hemispheres are removed, but a human is blind if the visual cortex region of the cerebral hemispheres is destroyed. This is because our visual behavior depends greatly on conscious awareness of visual sensations.

In spite of our unawareness of brainstem functions, the brainstem and spinal cord contain programs that control our more automatic behavioral functions. Smiling and laughter, vocalizations, keeping our balance, breathing, swallowing and sleeping are all processes that are generated by these lower, brainstem and spinal cord programs.

FISH DO NOT HAVE THE BRAIN DEVELOPMENT THAT IS NECESSARY FOR THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EXPERIENCE OF PAIN OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF AWARENESS

The experience of pain depends on functions of our complex, enlarged cerebral hemispheres. The unpleasant emotional aspect of pain is generated by specific regions of the human cerebral hemispheres, especially the frontal lobes. The functional activity of these frontal lobe regions is closely tied to the emotional aspect of pain in humans and damage of these brain regions in people eliminates the unpleasantness of pain. These regions do not exist in a fish brain. Therefore, a fish doesn’t appear to have the neurological capacity to experience the unpleasant psychological aspect of pain. This point is especially important, because some opponents of fishing have argued that fish are capable of feeling pain because some of the lower, subcortical nervous system pathways important for nociception are present in fish. Obviously this argument has no validity because without the special frontal lobe regions that are essential for pain experiences, lower pathways alone can’t produce this experience. The rapid, well-coordinated escape responses of a fish to nociceptive stimuli are generated automatically at brainstem and spinal cord levels but, if a fish’s brainstem and spinal cord work like a humans (and it is very likely that they do) there is no awareness of neural activity occurring at these levels.

It might be argued that fish have the capacity to generate the psychological experience of pain by a different process than that occurring in the frontal lobes of the human brain, but such an argument is insupportable. The capacity to experience pain, as we know it, has required the massive expansion of our cerebral hemispheres, thus allocating large numbers of brain cells to the task of conscious experience, including the emotional reaction of pain. The small, relatively simple fish brain is fully devoted to regulating just the functions of which a fish is capable. A fish brain is simple and efficient, and capable of only a limited number of operations, much like a 1949 Volkswagen automobile. By comparison, the human brain is built on the same basic plan as that of a fish, but with massive expansions and additional capacities. The human brain is more like a modern luxury car with all-wheel drive, climate control, emission controls, electronic fuel injection, anti-theft devices and computerized systems monitoring. These refinements and additional functions couldn’t exist without massive additional hardware. The massive additional neurological hardware of the human cerebral hemispheres makes possible the psychological dimension of our existence, including pain experience.

There are also huge differences between mammals in the degree of complexity of cerebral hemisphere development, especially within the frontal lobes. The brains of predatory mammals are typically larger and more complex than brains of their prey. For example, the brains of sheep and deer have a tiny fraction of the frontal lobe mass that is present in humans, making it probable that the kinds of psychological experience of these animals, including pain, is quite different from human experience.

THE REACTIONS OF FISH TO NOCICEPTIVE STIMULI ARE SIMILAR TO THEIR REACTIONS TO PREDATORS AND OTHER NON-NOCICEPTIVE STIMULI

When a fish is hooked by an angler, it typically responds with rapid swimming behavior that appears to be a flight response. Human observers sometimes interpret this flight response to be a reaction to pain, as if the fish was capable of the same kind of pain experience as a human. From the previous explanation, it should be clear that fish behavior is a result of brainstem and spinal patterns of activity that are automatically elicited by the stimulation of being hooked, but that fish don’t have the brain systems necessary to experience pain. It is very important to note that the flight responses of a hooked fish are essentially no different from responses of a fish being pursued by a visible predator or a fish that has been startled by a vibration in the water. These visual and vibratory stimuli do not activate nociceptive types of sensory neurons so the flight responses can’t be due to activation of pain-triggering neural systems. Instead, these flight responses of fish are a general reaction to many types of potentially threatening stimuli and can’t be taken to represent a response to pain. Also, these flight responses are unlikely to reflect fear because the brain regions known to be responsible for the experience of fear, which include some of the same regions necessary for the emotional aspect of pain, are not present in a fish brain. Instead, these responses are simply protective reactions to a wide range of stimuli associated with predators or other threats, to which a fish automatically and rapidly responds.

Although fish don’t have the capacity to experience human-like pain or suffering, their reactions to nociceptive stimuli or capture are still important because these reactions include the secretion of stress hormones. These stress hormones can have undesirable health effects on fish if they are secreted in large amounts over a long period of time. So, it’s important when practicing catch-and-release fishing to observe the usually recommended procedures of landing a fish before it is exhausted and returning it to the water quickly.

The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience the emotional distress and suffering of pain. Thus, the struggles of a fish don’t signify suffering when the fish is seized in the talons of an osprey, when it is devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear, or when it is caught by an angler.
 
That's a long boring read, but feel free.

Elegance Coral, you rarely have a nice thing to say on these forums. The last three threads I've read that you've posted in have been NEGATIVE responses to someones positive excitement about it. (See: My new tomato: first pics) You're the one specifically who seems to know everything. Like a "Malnutricianed fish" from a blurry picture.....come on, the dude was excited about his new fish and you bust in to "**** on his cornflakes". Nice going.

At the end of the day, I still say it doesn't matter. They are fish. They aren't dogs. They aren't kids. They are fish. I have them to entertain my kids and dogs.

Let's move on to the next idea that you guys can jump on.... I've ordered 2 pairs of breeding clown fish and I'm going to start trying to raise black oscis and orange oscis. If my little experiment works, I will be having lots and lots of baby oscis around. Scary huh?

Twelve Jewels.... If they hatch and I successfully raise them, I will give you 2 pairs of each color to put in your tank.

Thanks again.
 
One clown is not a modular replacement for another, not for me and I don't think it is for the rest of the people posting in this thread either. That's the difference between you and us.

My sentiment exactly, very good job putting it to words. I have a Clarkii clownfish that I have been offered ten times its actual value - yet it remains mine. Many other hobbyist, and breeders especially, would mourn a loss of their fish the same as any other pet. To us in this forum, our clownfish are not just a $$ sign, to be replaced on a whim, they are part of our passion for this hobby.
 
That's a long boring read, but feel free.

Elegance Coral, you rarely have a nice thing to say on these forums. The last three threads I've read that you've posted in have been NEGATIVE responses to someones positive excitement about it. (See: My new tomato: first pics) You're the one specifically who seems to know everything. Like a "Malnutricianed fish" from a blurry picture.....come on, the dude was excited about his new fish and you bust in to "**** on his cornflakes". Nice going.

At the end of the day, I still say it doesn't matter. They are fish. They aren't dogs. They aren't kids. They are fish. I have them to entertain my kids and dogs.

Let's move on to the next idea that you guys can jump on.... I've ordered 2 pairs of breeding clown fish and I'm going to start trying to raise black oscis and orange oscis. If my little experiment works, I will be having lots and lots of baby oscis around. Scary huh?

Twelve Jewels.... If they hatch and I successfully raise them, I will give you 2 pairs of each color to put in your tank.

Thanks again.

I think Elegance is a great guy!He dosent always say negitive comments.Belive me.I went back and looked at the thread you talked about,he is simply helping him out by telling him that he needs to fed his fish more often.Wouldnt you like free advice like that if you just got a new fish you were exited about and something was wrong with it?I know I would.He just wanted to help a guy out!Thats all!And the guy took no offence to it AT ALL!
 
ctlegacy - I would say your view of elegance coral and his posting technique is like your view on this hobby: terribly shortsighted. Perhaps if you had an extended period of time to draw upon your conclusions you might realize this. I took a look at your previous posts today...you apparently became an expert in the past three months after a 3 month break from for forum? You have been advising people multiple times that many clowns in one tank can and will work without giving any disclaimer about the care that must be given.

I urge you to put some effort into breeding those clowns. Then at least we won't have to worry about you taking any more clowns out of the market for your experiments.....if you can even get them laying and raised.

Just because you posted one full article doesn't put any more weight on it. I think right now we can agree that because there are articles on both sides of the coin that it is debatable. Because of such debate shouldn't we err on the side of compassion for the life of another animal? I can usually see the reason and logic behind most people's arguments, but you sir, are one disturbing individual.
 
The very person you cite also concludes with:

I wish to emphasize that the improbability that fish can experience pain in no way diminishes our responsibility for concern about their welfare. Fish are capable of robust, unconscious, behavioral, physiological and hormonal responses to stressors, which if sufficiently intense or
sustained, can be detrimental to their health.

Yet you show no responsibility or concern whatsoever for their welfare

Again all of your yada yada yada can basically be summed up like this - you have different species of clownfish and anemones in a 9 month old tank.

Somehow with that lengthy experience (this is how you relay SARCASM), you conclude that you are someone who "pushes the limits" of the hobby.
If it weren't for people who pushed the limits we wouldn't even have a hobby to sit and argue about.

Buddy you are hardly the first person nor will you be the last person to cram as many fish as they can into a glass cage and proclaim success. What do you want - a siemens westinghouse science prize? (MORE SARCASM).

No question the beauty behind this hobby is that there are many ways to end up with a beautiful coral reef display (t5, mh, skimmer, no skimmer, fuge, no fuge, dsb, bb, vodka, no vodka). But the overarching theme to all those great tanks has been patience and maturity (of the tank). I have not seen any evidence/proof of this so called successful tank, however you do show a remarkably uncanny resemblance to many who proclaim they are successful at cramming 20 tangs in a 3 foot tank and then never come back on the board again.

fwiw - i keep a pair of clowns and no anemonies. My clowns lay eggs frequently. I do my best to raise them all. I had one batch where all I had were 4 viable past meta. Rather than "discard" them as you seem to be so easily tempted to do - I raised them to a suitable size, displayed them at World Oceans Day at adventure aquarium and was able to get a local non-profit group at the aquarium to take them in for their students. Our club now has a rapport with this group and we are in the middle of helping them build out a full reef tank for their students. I am in this hobby because I want to push conservation. I want to teach my children (and others who are interested) the value of life - whether it is a fish or not.

If fish are just bright colors for you - please go and get a wallpaper for your pc - it's much less maintenance and has far brighter colors.

Finally you claim not to be an attention-getter yet you continue to post here over and over again. If you don't respect what others have to say - then why bother? I guess this statement by AJSTITAN14 was right on.
Trying to discuss any other systems of value will be like shouting at a brick wall.
 
Although fish don’t have the capacity to experience human-like pain or suffering, their reactions to nociceptive stimuli or capture are still important because these reactions include the secretion of stress hormones. These stress hormones can have undesirable health effects on fish if they are secreted in large amounts over a long period of time. So, it’s important when practicing catch-and-release fishing to observe the usually recommended procedures of landing a fish before it is exhausted and returning it to the water quickly.

By the way, that was an enjoyable read - nothing close to boring.

Did you read your own article? While it argues nearly exclusively that fish cannot "feel" pain (which as you know I will argue against still based on the articles I cited earlier) it agrees entirely with what everyone on here has been telling you thus far: long-term health of a fish in stressful environment is bad. Extrapolate out to your situation. Clownfish are known to be territorial. Having many territorial fish in close proximity leads to stress - regardless of if they are outwardly showing significant signs or not. Eventually, something will break. 9 months may not be enough time yet, but just wait for something to start laying eggs and the gloves will come off.

Furthermore, the "article" you cited (which was just that, an article - not peer reviewed or substantiated by any research on the part of the author, thus carries about the same weight as a "People" magazine article IMO), was published online in 2003. In 2009 a group of Norwegian researchers performed actual experiments and made strides into understanding the pathophysiological pain response in fish. The abstract is posted below.


Thermonociception in fish: Effects of two different doses of morphine on thermal threshold and post-test behaviour in goldfish (Carassius auratus)

Janicke Nordgreena, , , Joseph P. Garnerb, , Andrew Michael Janczakc, , Birgit Ranheima, , William M. Muirb, and Tor Einar Horsberga,
aDepartment of Pharmacology and Toxicology, The Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Oslo, Norway
bDepartment of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, USA
cDepartment of Production Animal Clinical Sciences, The Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Oslo, Norway
Accepted 24 March 2009. Available online 18 April 2009.

The question of whether fish can perceive pain is controversial, and pain is a potentially grave threat to fish welfare. To be able to study pain in a species, knowledge of its nociceptive system is necessary. There is therefore a need for standardised, repeatable and quantifiable measures of nociception and pain in fish. Sensitivity to noxious heat is readily quantifiable. We developed an apparatus to expose goldfish to controlled, localised heat stimulation, and tested the hypothesis that goldfish perceive heat as aversive. We predicted that they would respond to increasing heat with an escape response, that morphine would decrease their heat sensitivity and that the heat stimulation would affect post-test behaviour. A safety cut-off temperature of 50 °C was built into the test apparatus. All 16 fish responded to the heat with an escape response, with a mean baseline of 38 °C. However, morphine at 40 and 50 mg kg−1 could not be demonstrated to have a biologically relevant analgesic effect, but did significantly decrease the impact of heat stimulation on behaviour in the home tank. To our knowledge, this study is the first to systematically investigate thermonociception in unanaesthetised fish.

It's not too difficult to find information on both sides, but if you take a 10,000 foot view of a very quick literature search, the prevailing trend is leaning heavily on fish being able to feel pain. Read Wikipedia even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish#cite_note-19 All sources are cited. This showcases the real groundbreaking work. There is nothing groundbreaking about killing fish in an over-populated tank.
 
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Nano Tank #1
The Hippo obviously very quickly out grew this tank and is now in the 150g tank.
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Nano Tank #2
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150 Tank
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Hopefully you can see that in all three of my tanks all of the clowns are in great shape. They don't seem super stressed to me, but as you've all clearly stated, I am an idiot.

What could I possibly know about reef keeping. You can see how bad all my corals and anemones look. They are barely hanging on. Before anyone tries to make a comment about the anemone in the center of Nano 2, it was given to me in extremely bad health, and I managed through shear luck (because of my obvious stupidity) to work it's way back from the dead. When I got it, it was about the size of a 50 cent piece with NO TENTICLES.

Thanks for busting my balls. I realize now that you are all way smarter than me, and I'm sure your tanks are way nicer. I don't know what I was thinking, but you've shown me the light. Thanks again.

If anyone has any more questions, please refer them to Elegance Coral, or one of the other "much smarter than me" reef gods.

Thanks and I hope you enjoy the pictures as much as I enjoy the tanks.
 
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