why only 2 clowns?

[bues0022]

+1 Todd.

While the health of your tanks looks fairly decent, you are defending yourself with claims about anemones - we are discussing your lack of care, empathy, compassion, and humanity for your clownfish. I don't think anyone claimed you to be stupid or of lesser intelligence, merely unwilling or unable to acknowledge the stress and potential harm you are causing your fish.

Elegance Coral and as you put it: '"much smarter than me" reef gods' aren't necessarily smarter, but more open to viewing thoughts and ideas that differ from their own, reading the research, and making conclusions for the health of their fish instead of mere beauty. Our tanks aren't necessarily nicer, but likely a much reduced stress environment for our clownfish.

While it is difficult to tell sizes from your picture, many of your clowns look juvinile, small, and may not be paired yet. As they fully develop, pair up, and lay eggs you may find that while you have a large amount of rockwork, it may not be enough. At this point, I think the only way you will convince any of us is to change your negative attitude, present your opinions a bit more humbly, and keep a record (GOOD OR BAD) on the status of ALL clowns in the tank. Do you have any closeups of the fish? Are any fins tattered? One that is being picked on repeatedly by the others? Unfortunately, only time and fish's lives will tell us the final outcome to your behavior, because obviously nothing any of us have attempted to tell you will do anything but to further entrench your stubborn narrow-minded view of the world.

 

[Colorado Reef]

Just my 2 cents. But though I am new to Saltwater aquariums i have been keeping freshwater (esp. African cichlids) for 10+ years. Quite Honestly some of the more aggressive cichlids make clownfish look like p***ies.

And one of the first things you learn when keeping agressive cichlids is that you can either keep a couple or a bunch but nothing in between. The idea being that small numbers can establish a teritory and defend it while tankmates do the same but the teritories are far enough apart that neither fish is severly stressed. But with a bunch there are to few teritories for each fish/ pair to establish/defend without expending far too much energy, and therefore they live rather peacefully.

From just searching this forum everyone seems to say just keep 1 type and no more than 2 fish. But the thread of the month is " 27 clowns in the same tank 27 months". Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it. Even ctlegacy's tanks look healthy and prosperous (how most of you put it, all his clowns but one species should be dead inside a month from aggression) On the other side i ceartainly dont fully agree with CT there is aggresion and the more the merrier seems far to simplified a view.

I certainly don't know everything about clowns or saltwater for that mater but i am tired of the polarized atitude of the forums (Most forums for that matter). I love forums as a learning tool but too often they become a squabbling ground between equally certain, equally ignorant, equally stuborn people.

Just a parting thought: Sucess is praised (eg. 27 Clowns) but attempts at sucess (eg. ctlegacy) are ridiculed as cruel and idiotic.

Just remember 20 years ago trying to keep corals in an aquarium was considered by most to be cruel and idiotic.

 

[ctlegacy]

I give up.....

I give up.....

ctlegacy --- I suggest that you tone down your attitude.

Really?

Again, it's my attitude? Well sorry then......

Elegance Coral and as you put it: '"much smarter than me" reef gods' aren't necessarily smarter, but more open to viewing thoughts and ideas that differ from their own, reading the research, and making conclusions for the health of their fish instead of mere beauty. Our tanks aren't necessarily nicer, but likely a much reduced stress environment for our clownfish.

See, I disagree 100%. I am the only one who is willing to admit there might be two sides to the story. Lots of people have multiple pairs of clowns, and lots of people don't. I have clearly stated, over and over again, that although for whatever reason it worked for me, in 3 different tanks, it might not work for everyone, and you should be prepared to remove the clowns if it doesn't. Oh and please don't think that I haven't removed clowns from my tanks. I've taken out a few. 1 clarki, 1 maroon, and 1 cinnamin.

No offense, but I seem to be the only "open minded" one here.

To the best of my limited knowledge all but 2 of my clowns would still be considered "juveniles" The two black clowns in Nano 1 are now 1 3/4 to 2 years old. The female is roughly 2.5 inches and the male is slightly smaller. Most of my clowns do seem to be "paired", but like I said earlier, I don't think any of them are laying eggs.

Bues...you seem to be the only reasonable person here. So maybe you'll be able to recognize that I am too. I take extremely good care of my tanks. I take extremely good care of my fish. Anytime I recognize a problem, I deal with it. I actually try to avoid the problems before they become problems. I know what stressed fish look like. I've seen them. I know what hand fed, not stressed, very social fish look like too. I have them. The excitement my clowns get every time I get near the fish tank, because I hand feed them, would almost be an arguement for them having feelings. (I don't believe they do. I'm very sure they don't. I think it's a trained response to thinking they are going to eat.)

I like my fish, but my story doesn't change. If one died tomorrow, I would just go get another. I don't name them. I'm not "attached" to them any more than I would be an ant farm. I am facinated by the tank as a whole, but I don't worry about them in a storm. I don't worry about whether they are hot or cold. That's why I bought an Apex. It does alot of that worrying for me. If the power went out for an extended period of time, I would be worried about the tanks as a whole, but because I have $1000's, many of them, invested in them. So again, it becomes the money not the fish.

Anyway, everyone can feel free to keep taking their cheap shots. I'm thick skinned and actually enjoy watching people prove their I.Q. My opinions, which is what they are, won't change. I'm still the only one who agrees that there are two ways to interpret the laws.

My fish will be well taken care of whether you people think so or not. Again, not because I care about the fish, but because I care about the money I've spent on them. Seems stupid to have to buy another fish when you can just take care of the ones you have....

I'm looking forward to trying to breed them.

 

[ctlegacy]

Just my 2 cents. But though I am new to Saltwater aquariums i have been keeping freshwater (esp. African cichlids) for 10+ years. Quite Honestly some of the more aggressive cichlids make clownfish look like p***ies.

And one of the first things you learn when keeping agressive cichlids is that you can either keep a couple or a bunch but nothing in between. The idea being that small numbers can establish a teritory and defend it while tankmates do the same but the teritories are far enough apart that neither fish is severly stressed. But with a bunch there are to few teritories for each fish/ pair to establish/defend without expending far too much energy, and therefore they live rather peacefully.

From just searching this forum everyone seems to say just keep 1 type and no more than 2. But the thread of the month is " 27 clowns in the same tank 27 months". Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it. Even ctlegacy's tanks look healthy and prosperous (how most of you put it all his clowns but one species should be dead inside a month from agression let alone 9 months) On the other side i certainly don't know everything about clowns or saltwater for that mater but i am tired of the polarized atitude of the forums (Most forums for that matter). I love forums as a learning tool but too often they become a squabbling ground between equally certain, equally ignorant, equally stuborn people.

Just a parting thought: Sucess is praised (eg. 27 Clowns) but attempts at sucess (eg. ctlegacy) are ridiculed as cruel and idiotic.

Just remember 20 years ago trying to keep corals in an aquarium was considered by most to be cruel and idiotic.

Sorry Colorado, but logic won't be tolerated here!

 

[phil519]

From just searching this forum everyone seems to say just keep 1 type and no more than 2. But the thread of the month is " 27 clowns in the same tank 27 months". Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it.

Just a parting thought: Sucess is praised (eg. 27 Clowns) but attempts at sucess (eg. ctlegacy) are ridiculed as cruel and idiotic.

Just remember 20 years ago trying to keep corals in an aquarium was considered by most to be cruel and idiotic.

And so you are exactly the type of person I had in mind when I responded back to chris. New person who now mixes up the idea that 27 clowns in moberts display is the same thing as what chris is talking about. I submit to you that you have jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

27 clowns of the same species is fine as long as you have the tank sized correctly and the fact that the fish sorted out their position as fry is a definite big advantage. Also she has had that tank for almost 3 years when she first posted in 2007/2008. She's had that tank now for almost 5 years.

chris is claiming success at keeping different species in a tank after 9 months.
If chris had said- i've had these clowns in my tank for 5 years - no issues. i'd be the first person to vote TOTM.

Furthermore the argument submitted is that fish do not feel pain and are being bred in scotts basement (his words), therefore fish do not merit the same type of care as one might afford a small mammal - like a hamster, guinea pig. Yet the very person he quoted - stated: I wish to emphasize that the improbability that fish can experience pain in no way diminishes our responsibility for concern about their welfare. Fish are capable of robust, unconscious, behavioral, physiological and hormonal responses to stressors, which if sufficiently intense or
sustained, can be detrimental to their health.- Dr. Rose.

Even ctlegacy's tanks look healthy and prosperous (how most of you put it all his clowns but one species should be dead inside a month from agression let alone 9 months)

read this thread again sir. No one said anything to that effect. The concern though is the long-term (9 months is NOT long term) viability of a tank with multiple species. Even a cichlid owner should know that adult cichlids that do not have fry in their mouths act completely different than those that are not breeding/juveniles. It may end up working - we don't know. But proclaiming success is way premature. Those pics seem to indicate juvenile specimens.

 

[tiredreefer]

The answer boils down to yes you can have multiple clown fish in a tank. Is it a risk? Yes. Form your own opinion on it. Yes from peoples experience the general rule is to go with just one pair as that seems to minimize the risk. Is it right? The answer is that is what worked for that person. If you dont want to worry about risk then paint a reef inside the tank as everything big or small is a risk when you try to recreate a complex reef system. I don't agree with anyone as that is why I have opinion of my own.

 

[Will Haider]

my local fishstore has six saddlebacks in a 40g and they get along all fine they host a colt coral

 

[ctlegacy]

Someone please tell me how this even started. I was the 3rd post in this thread. My post doesn't come off as "this is how it is or else", it simply stated MY EXPERIENCE! Then the forum vultures went nuts.

I never claimed to be the expert, I simply answered the question of how long I had the tank going. I guess I considered myself the 9 month expert, but I never said it. Not to mention that right now out of all the people posting here, I'm the only one who has had mixed breeds of multiple clowns in 3 different tanks for 9 months so maybe I am the expert.

Then you back people in a corner so they feel like they have to come out swinging.

It usually only takes one or two days on a forum before I realize how much I hate people on forums. You attack anyone who thinks even slightly different than you. Sorry I ever posted in the first place.

 

[Pepsi2008]

CTLEGACY- where did you get your stand from? i have the same exact one lol - also man i have 5 percs in my tank 1 b&w clown and a pair of Maroon clowns - all doing very good togather mainly they all keep to them selves - 1 pair of my percs are hosting in my blue gigantea and my maroons are hosting in my LTA - none of the clowns look stressed all eat extremely well

 

[bues0022]

Your initial post (#3 on the thread) isn't the problem. Neither is it a problem with attempting something different from the norm. Like I already said before, I put a haddoni in a 3 week old tank. That would definitely fly in the face of conventional wisdom too, right? The problem that people are having is your cavalier attitude towards the lives of the fish in your tanks. If you approached it as an experiment looking to objectively evaluate the progress, this might be received much better than "If one dies oh well, I'll add two more". This is seen as not having any regard for the life of a fish. In your argument, it's just a fish. I agree also - it's just a fish. When all the cards of life come down, one fish will not matter. HOWEVER, it is an animal in our care to keep alive, and even though it might only be a fish it still deserves some respect towards its life.

If it only takes a day or two, why stick around for 6 months? I see you took about a 3 month break from us over here, but I've been around to lots of forums on many topics, and this forum is well moderated, and mostly extremely helpful if the posters keep an open mind. Why are many posters coming down so hard on you? Many have had 20+ years experience in this hobby. Just adding up experience from some of the people who have chimed in on this thread we likely have over 100+ years of experience to show that what you are doing is likely to end in disaster. They've gone through the trials and problems of tanks, and are attempting to keep you from making some of the same mistakes they have. One of your retorts to us is to essentially take a piece of our own medicine and keep an open mind. I've been thinking about your tank a bit today, and there is still a chance we may learn something - if you approach this a little differently. Once again, if your attitude towards the fish was one of objectivity and exploration, and keep it an open forum for all ideas it may be a learning process as to different ways clownfish can be grouped together. However, by turning our argument around in an attempt to keep our minds open, you are closing off the same channels which may help you and the flow of ideas. It seems like you have yet to acknowledge the fact that 9 months is not long, a 2 year old clown can still be a juvi, historically multiple clown species tanks have ended poorly, and a fish's life still deserves respect.

Finally, threads and arguments like this can all too often lead to wrong conclusions to those new to SW like Colorado Reef. FW does not equal SW. To him/her, if you read the bulk of the thread - it acknowledges multiple times how this is against the trend, it is a VERY special case, should not be attempted by anything less than an expert, and is continually monitored for signs of stress for fast removal of fish. It is an experiment, as is your current tank, and should be presented as such and not an example of what is possible until the conditions surrounding LONG TERM (multi-year) success has been fully understood.

Pepsi2008 - how big is the tank and how long has it been setup? How old are the clowns? do you have any pictures?

I am not entirely saying multiple-species clown tanks is entirely out of the question. I have seen such scenarios end poorly, and if some are having success we should attempt to understand how and why. Like ctlegacy said earlier, 20 years ago SPS was nearly impossible to keep - now it's not since we understand it. I DO have a big problem with the attitude towards presenting anything related to multi-species clown tanks as examples when it is far less than entirely understood at this time and may lead to uninformed newbies attempting, not having success and quiting the hobby taking a large death toll with them.

Lastly, I am quite shocked when you think I am one of the most reasonable people on here. You have readily insulted some of the very people I greatly look up to as experts both in skill level and in maintaining objectivity when posting here on the forum.

 

[Pepsi2008]

no pics but heres something that might be better a video lol its a 125g tank rr- sump everything and acctually i just discovered toinght my one maroon clown is being hosted by my one lta and my bw guy joined my one pare of percs who are being hosted by my blue carpet that i just got a few days ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXhZ2HmyZ8

 

[elegance coral]

no pics but heres something that might be better a video lol its a 125g tank rr- sump everything and acctually i just discovered toinght my one maroon clown is being hosted by my one lta and my bw guy joined my one pare of percs who are being hosted by my blue carpet that i just got a few days ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXhZ2HmyZ8

Between about the 20 and 23 second mark, you can see what appears to be a pec chasing a saddle back, then a tomato chases the perc. As your system is today, there is probably (hopefully) enough of swimming room and hiding places for these fish to avoid any life threatening aggression. As these fish mature, the level of aggression will escalate. Odds are, you'll come home from work some day to find one of the fish hovering in a corner or hiding in the rocks, with its fins shredded, breathing hard, and unwilling to eat. Such a fish will often never eat again. Even if it is removed from the environment.

I am no "reef God"! Nor am I trying to be. I, like many others here, am simply trying to help others avoid some of the same mistakes I've made in this hobby. There are quite a few VERY experienced hobbyists that have chimed in on this thread. The opinions they have doesn't come from reading stuff on the web. It comes from years of observing the behavior of these fish in their own homes. The fact that they share very similar opinions, should speak volumes to those just starting out in the hobby.

 

[ctlegacy]

Yeah, after reading this again for about the 8th time. I still stand behind everything I said in my initial 2 posts, after that it gets bad. It was Bues and elegance coral, who spun this thread to the negative, and I fell victim to their trap. For that I am sorry.

There are many people who know a great deal more about this hobby than me. However, I have no respect for people who attack others for having an opinion different than their own. I definitely didn't want to put anyone down for their opinion, and I don't think that I did. I was just cornered by a couple of people and forced to defend my position. I did let get out of hand, but honestly I think "elegance coral". and people like him (or her?) hover through the forums waiting to pounce on people and rain on their parade. That to me is just wrong.

I'm a pretty easy going guy that doesn't take much of it to heart, but someone who isn't might be genuinely "scared" to post something fearing the "radicals" that seem to troll through the forums looking for a fight.

I don't post here alot. I view these forums everyday though. I like the pictures. I like the stories, but I don't chime in unless I feel like I have something to contribute. That's why I don't post for 3 months at a time. Even though I thought elegance coral's response to the guy with the new tomato clown was possible the most irresponsibe, and ill timed comment someone has ever made. I didn't say anything, because I had nothing to contribute. Actually, I should have just posted something like, "Nice tomato", but I didn't. So even elegance coral claims he's not trying to be a reef god, I think he would have to be to declare:
- "This is a new fish to you, correct? It looks malnourished. If it were my fish, I'd start feeding it about twice a day with foods like krill, mysis, and frozen variety mixes. I'd soak the food in vitamins and amino acids before feeding. Hopefully, it's just malnourished and doesn't have other issues like internal parasites, or some other sickness that's causing it to lose weight."
From a blury picture he recommends over-feeding and soaking foods. I agree that you're not a reef god, but I don't agree that you don't think you are.

Anyway, I apologize that I let myself get out of hand. I probably won't post for another 3 months. Even though I believe I have and will have things to offer, I think it's better to keep my ideas and opinions to myself than be harrassed for having a different idea.

Thanks everyone who had something constructive to say.

-Chris

 

[bues0022]

Chris - once again you seem to be blurring things. In a previous post you asked how did it get out of control...if you read back it was me who turned the thread because I couldn't let your post about your complete irreverence towards the life of a fish go without a response. Young and/or new people may read it and get the wrong impression. That is the real issue. Elegance Coral is up front and straight forward. That is what he does, but he is knowledgeable. You will not gain any credibility by attempting to put others down and discredit others.

It's not a bad thing to stir the pot once in a while, but when you cannot humbly take, backup, or consider any criticism and insight from others with literally ten times your experience then it is considered irresponsible and yes, you will be called out for it. If you reread the entire thread 8 times, then you will see that nobody go overly upset and name calling besides you. The comments were meant to to question your methods and husbandry in an attempt to ensure healthy fish.

 

[ctlegacy]

Bues.. I'm not blurring anything. I promise. I agree that you took the first aggressive turn in this thread, but running into your posts in other threads, this one seem out of character for you. I was just reading another thread you are active in, and you seem almost humble and human in that one.

I tried to explain that I do take criticism. I actually take it very well. I don't take attacks though. They tend to get me on the offensive very quickly. That's very much so what happened here.

I'm not trying to put anyone down either. As you may have gathered, I also am a pretty straight forward person.

In the end, it won't really change my mind about what I'm doing, and I don't think if in 2 years all are still doing fine in my tank, it would change your mind either.

Best wishes! Good luck! Most important, have fun!

 

[Beaun]

A lot of it depends on the species IMO. I have seen several groups of clowns in public aquariums (Atlantis Marine World) but they are chosen wisely and it is also 3000 gallons of space for them. Putting two pairs of juvies in a 29 cube is not success. Once they start breeding there is a good chance that they will fight to the death. My B&W clowns attack me when they are breeding, let alone tollerate another pair. However, in a larger tank a pair of ocelaris and a pair of pink skunks can probaly get alone, they are two of the more docile clowns around. As with almost everything in the hobby there are exeptions, not everything is black and white, and there are not many "rules" that are true all the time.

Here is a pic of the 3,000g "best friends tank" at Atlantis Marine World, I've seen oc., skunks, saddlebacks, and the blue line clowns in there. It seems to be a bit different then two sets of juvies in a nano.

 

[ctlegacy]

I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but THAT'S AWESOME!!!! I love seeing the big anemones with the extra long tentacles. I can't wait for mine to get like that.

Great pic!

 

[ctlegacy]

Just out of curiosity, why don't the anemones fight? I know they say that even clones can sting each other for space, but these are clearly all touching, and I would guess they might not even all be clones. Just wondering.

 

[ctlegacy]

Okay one more...well 2 actually. 1. what is the black clown with the yellow fin kind of center right? 2. are those baby hippo tangs in the center, and are they in the anemones?

 

[Toddrtrex]

Just out of curiosity, why don't the anemones fight? I know they say that even clones can sting each other for space, but these are clearly all touching, and I would guess they might not even all be clones. Just wondering.

I have never had any issues with the same species of anemones touching -- clone or not, and color morphs don't matter.

I have done this with BTAs (( E Quadricolor )) LTA (( M doreensis )) and S. Haddoni. However, I don't mix different species of anemones in the same tank.