BeanAnimal
Premium Member
that should say "clamp type" not "camp type" btw
Your Electrician Here
- Thread starter Young Frankenstein
- Start date
I think they are talking about being on the ground floor Michael. 
Mike31154
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15654137#post15654137 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
im an electician and engineer, and ive been in the industry for 30 years nearly, and ive absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about
Ha, ha. Well how do you expect to understand when you folks use way too high a voltage (220 VAC) in conjunction with too low of a frequency (50 Hz)???? Not to mention the fact that you drive on the wrong side of the road!
BTW, a couple of years ago I picked up a Japanese import right hand drive Toyota Hilux Surf (4 Runner with the steering wheel on the wrong side). You should see some of the goofy looks I get sometimes driving this thing around town.
uncleof6
Active member
Nominal voltage in UK is 230v @ 50 Hz. In fact more countries in the world use 220 - 240 @ 50 Hz, than use 110 - 120 @ 60Hz. But we here, are not really behind, as 240 VAC is delivered to the main panel, just via 2 hots, 120 VAC each. So why is our friend in UK confused? Simple...
The 230 VAC is supplied via a single hot and 1 neutral. Here the 240 is supplied with 2 hots and a neutral that carries the unbalanced load. 120 VAC is supplied to the wall recpeticles with 1 hot and 1 neutral. Our system could be improved, to the power advantage-- with essentially no change to the infrastructure that is in place, by eliminating the neutral, and running both hots to the recepticles, providing 240 VAC. So what do we do with the billions of 120 light bulbs that are stockpiled? Simply wire 2 in series. We have Thomas Edison, and his 100 Volt light bulb, to thank for the 120 VAC Nominal. (They did not want to change the lighting system, that did not care if the power was AC or DC.) Although, it might be considered safer, since the single line voltage (single hot) to ground would be 120VAC, unless you wish to grab both lines..... If you have ever been "bit" by 240VAC or 277VAC, you will understand what I am talking about. (higher current flow)
Another difference is in the grounding of the service main. While we are encumbered by inspectors demands that the ground rod be jack hammered into the ground a distance of 8' (complete with mushroomed end to prove it,) in the UK, the "safety wiring" ( or casing) of the incoming cable is used.
Ok I will shut up. Have fun.... oh almost forgot--yeah their voltage is too high.....
Jim
Young Frankenstein
New member
Any electrical questions post them here.
Young Frankenstein
New member
bzzzzzzz
Yeah I got a question
There is a beautifull young lady that live's next to me, that seem's to have an electrical problem with her kitchen light.
I notice the light just blinks from time to time, & I think that it may have a loose wire or a short
How do I aproach her & ask " can I check out your short's "
Thanks for a reply
Steve
There is a beautifull young lady that live's next to me, that seem's to have an electrical problem with her kitchen light.
I notice the light just blinks from time to time, & I think that it may have a loose wire or a short
How do I aproach her & ask " can I check out your short's "
Thanks for a reply
Steve
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15656087#post15656087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
Nominal voltage in UK is 230v @ 50 Hz. In fact more countries in the world use 220 - 240 @ 50 Hz, than use 110 - 120 @ 60Hz. But we here, are not really behind, as 240 VAC is delivered to the main panel, just via 2 hots, 120 VAC each. So why is our friend in UK confused? Simple...
The 230 VAC is supplied via a single hot and 1 neutral. Here the 240 is supplied with 2 hots and a neutral that carries the unbalanced load. 120 VAC is supplied to the wall recpeticles with 1 hot and 1 neutral. Our system could be improved, to the power advantage-- with essentially no change to the infrastructure that is in place, by eliminating the neutral, and running both hots to the recepticles, providing 240 VAC. So what do we do with the billions of 120 light bulbs that are stockpiled? Simply wire 2 in series. We have Thomas Edison, and his 100 Volt light bulb, to thank for the 120 VAC Nominal. (They did not want to change the lighting system, that did not care if the power was AC or DC.) Although, it might be considered safer, since the single line voltage (single hot) to ground would be 120VAC, unless you wish to grab both lines..... If you have ever been "bit" by 240VAC or 277VAC, you will understand what I am talking about. (higher current flow)
Another difference is in the grounding of the service main. While we are encumbered by inspectors demands that the ground rod be jack hammered into the ground a distance of 8' (complete with mushroomed end to prove it,) in the UK, the "safety wiring" ( or casing) of the incoming cable is used.
Ok I will shut up. Have fun.... oh almost forgot--yeah their voltage is too high.....
Jim
well thats clear now:lol:
no actually it is thanks, we too can have 2 hots as you call them into a house, however it ends up as 400 volts here, interesting anyhow, many thanks
virginiadiver69
New member
220 vs 120 electronic ballasts?
220 vs 120 electronic ballasts?
Young Frankenstein...I have someone installing three circuits for a tank upgrade.
I plan on having two circuits to split up my non-lighting equipment (pumps, heaters etc.) and the third circuit will be for lighting only.
For the lighting I'm gonna be using three IceCap 400w electronic and two 660 fluorescent ballasts.
The electrician has suggested using 220v MH ballasts as a way to cut consumption. What are your thought about pros vs. cons.
Other suggestions are welcome.
220 vs 120 electronic ballasts?
Young Frankenstein...I have someone installing three circuits for a tank upgrade.
I plan on having two circuits to split up my non-lighting equipment (pumps, heaters etc.) and the third circuit will be for lighting only.
For the lighting I'm gonna be using three IceCap 400w electronic and two 660 fluorescent ballasts.
The electrician has suggested using 220v MH ballasts as a way to cut consumption. What are your thought about pros vs. cons.
Other suggestions are welcome.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
You question is a bit more complex than it would appear at first blush so lets knock out some basics first:
Basic Electricity:
1) A 120V 20A circuit (2400W) can be loaded to about 80% (1920W) of its rating before you run into nuisance tripping problems. To make matters worse, the ballasts (even though they are electronic) will have an in-rush current that will push the load much momentarily past the nameplate rating. On a fully loaded circuit, this is often times enough to cause the breaker to trip.
2) Doubling the VOLTAGE halves the CURRENT. A 20A 240V circuit can carry 4800W (derated to 3840W in reality) on the same size (#12) wire as the 120V 20A circuit.
3) A ballast uses more power than the rated output by a margin of 5-20% depending on the ballast topology and load.
So lets look at your proposed load:
So lets look at your proposed load:
A 400W ballast will draw slightly more than 400W (lets say 500W for the sake of argument). The IceCap 660 is also rated at around 400W (440W I think). So you have (5) ballasts that are going to draw around 500W each, or 2500W.
120V Ballast Option:
If you place all (5) 500W devices on a 120V 20A branch circuit, you will overload the circuit. You actually will have trouble with only (4) such ballasts on a 120V 20A branch circuit. So for 120V ballasts, you will need AT LEAST (2) 120V 20A dedicated lighting circuits!
240V Option:
As we stated above, doubling the voltage halves the current. So if you went with a 240V 20A branch circuit, you would end up well within the load rating (a little over half) of the branch circuit. However, you are also now playing with a lot more voltage in a situation where water and ground faults are very common. This is not the safest option for a number of reasons. GFCI protection is going to be much more costly, and so are the ballasts.
Efficiency/Consumption and 120V and 240V in a home scenario:
Now lets answer your electricians recommendation. The answer is a lot more involved than most people care to pay attention to. A Watt is a Watt and that is what you are billed for. A Watt at 120V is the same as a Watt at 240V. However, given the same wire size, a higher voltage means less current has to travel over the wire. Resistance is the opposition to current flow and every wire has resistance. The higher the current flow of the wire, the warmer it becomes. Heat in the wire creates resistance. So in theory a higher voltage will incur less resistance for the same power over the same wire. In reality the difference between 120V and 240V on a #12 wire loaded to 15A is fairly insignificant and comes out to a few dollars a year. Following the same theory, you could wire the whole home with #10 wire even though #12 or #14 would suffice by code. Why don't we? The payoff is not worth the hassle. We can also talk about the native voltage of the ballast and losses involved there... but again it is a bit insignificant for our purposes. That is, there is going to be no real world difference between the cost to run a 120V ballast vs a 240V ballast.
So why do we have 240V and 480V ballasts? It makes a huge difference in materials when we are talking about 200-300 of these things above a warehouse floor. You can only fit a single 1000W halide on a 120V 20A branch circuit, but you can fit (4) of them on 9 of them on a 480V 20A branch circuit. So a warehouse floor with 100 Halides only needs (11) 20A 480V circuits instead of 100 120V 20A circuits. At the same time those insignificant resistance losses (gains) become a bit more significant when the electric bill is hundreds of dollars a day.
So what should you do? Run (2) 120V 20A lighting circuits and stay safe. The added cost of the extra circuit will be offset by the cost of the 240V GFCI protection and ballasts that would be needed if you went with the 240V option.
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uncleof6
Active member
Nominal voltage in the U.S. is 120v. So the correct number is 240v--- sorry just being a smart *** :lol2:
Doubling the voltage, decreases the amperage draw by a half (actually a little less than half). So the amps consumption is indeed less, however at the meter, the cost is the same. Electricity is billed by watts, not by amps-- so 120v at 1 amp = 120 watts, and 240v at .5 amps = 120 watts (disregarding power factor.) "A watt is a watt." The rationale behind using 240v is it is easier on the "inductive" parts of the system i.e. the motor and transformer windings, increasing the longevity. So you might as well run the pumps at 240v also.
Just as a side note: The "line to line" voltage may not ALWAYS be 240v(split-phase,) as with many of the condo units I have been working in, the "line to line" voltage is 208v, though the "line" to Neutral is 120v (single phase of a three phase "Y" configured secondary). 208v derived by connecting 2 phases from the secondary. Most multi- unit dwellings are the same.
Regards,
Jim
uncleof6
Active member
:wavehand:
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Multiple choice:
A) :wavehand: = couldn't have said it better myself
B) :wavehand: = damn he beat me to it
C) :wavehand: = hiya' bean...
D) :wavehand: = all off the above
:spin2:
virginiadiver69
New member
Thank you very much Animal for your in-depth explanation.
Though the ballasts actually cost the same, the high voltage does concern me (salt water and kids)...and I didn't consider the cost of fault protection.
Thanks for making up my mind.
Speaking of fault protection...should I use the bathroom style GFCI outlets?
Though the ballasts actually cost the same, the high voltage does concern me (salt water and kids)...and I didn't consider the cost of fault protection.
Thanks for making up my mind.
Speaking of fault protection...should I use the bathroom style GFCI outlets?
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I would use individual GFCI receptacles on each ballast and then maybe split the other (2) circuits into 2-3 GFCI receptacles each, depending on what is on them.
It will cost a bit more, but it will isolate each piece of critical equipment and prevent a single failure or nuisance trip from taking down other equipment too. When I (if ever) get my room re-work finished, each piece of equipment will be on its own GFCI. You can get Hubbell or Leviton commercial grade units on sale on eBay for a very good price from very reputable vendors who liquidate bankrupt businesses and the like.
It will cost a bit more, but it will isolate each piece of critical equipment and prevent a single failure or nuisance trip from taking down other equipment too. When I (if ever) get my room re-work finished, each piece of equipment will be on its own GFCI. You can get Hubbell or Leviton commercial grade units on sale on eBay for a very good price from very reputable vendors who liquidate bankrupt businesses and the like.
virginiadiver69
New member
That's what I'll do...thanks.
I guess I would need a ground probe for each circuit huh?
What are your thoughts on using them?
I guess I would need a ground probe for each circuit huh?
What are your thoughts on using them?
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