Zeovit

hi guys, I have a query regarding dosing dilluted zeo supplements thru a dosing pump. Ive posted it here http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1755655 ... but thought it would great to ask it here too...


Hello,

Im planning on a new tank and I will be using zeovit products on it. So my question would be, is it possible to dose zeovit supplements(ZeoStart 2, ZeoFood7, Pohl, Sponge & Amino Acid High Concentrate) thru a dosing pump?

My plan would be to dillute the said zeovit supplements at 1:9 ratio with tank water (IE. 30ml zeo start 2 with 270ml tank water), have the dosing pump dose 10ml of the mix every day.

Can those of you guys using Zeovit share your input on this?

Thanks and infos would be greatly appreciated.

Vic



thanks
 
I would go to the zeovit site for that one and have their mods give you better advice. I sincerely doubt this would be a good method, specifically with start2, bak, and food7, mainly because you need to dose after you have pumped the reactor and disturbed stones. Perhaps some of the others that do not have specific requirements... Good question though...
GL
 
Thought I would post an update from my last somewhat cranky/disgusted post, & ask a followup question.

I ordered some coral snow (supposed to remove cyano) & while waiting for it to arrive I did a 10% water change 4 days in a row (trying to dilute too much start2), took every thing out of the frag tank & syphoned a cyano carpet off the sand, & scrubbed all the rocks again. Been dosing 10ml coral snow & 6-8 drops bak daily for most of a week now, still get brown slime on glass & sand, still have red slime (& some bright green slime) on rocks where I can't scrub, & the fine fuzz is still with me, all but the fuzz seem to be a little better. Have only been dosing xtra & sponge power during this time.

fuzz.jpg


slime.jpg


The question is the RTD we talked about, Kolognekoral mentioned if tissue loss started from bottom up it was a nutrient imbalance. Could nutrient imbalance be the same thing as shock from rapid nutrient depletion, or what might the imbalance be? After 10 days of no start2 & 5 10% water changes the tissue loss has not completely stopped yet (it has slowed). How long should it take to completely stop? Most corals look good, but couple are still looking stressed.

tissueloss.jpg


Should I frag this if the tissue loss doesn't stop? I have one frag of this one in the frag tank (same system) that is completely unaffected.

Any insight into these issues welcome.
 
The "fuzz" is from a bit too much bacteria. Brown dusting and or bubbles (air) on the rocks is a sign of too much bacteria and or Start2.

I would frag the acro that is receeding from the bottom up "IF" it keeps dying off. Some of the STN could be from shocking the system by reducing nutrients too fast. Tip burn is usually from running too high an alkalinity level in an ULNS system.

HTH
 
So are you suggesting to stop dosing the zeobak since there is too much bacteria. I know the cyano is a bacteria, but my understanding is to dose bak when using coral snow. I assumed so the zeobak will consume nutrients & help starve the cyano? But I don't really know how coral snow works.
 
Jim,

I've used Coral Snow with Zeobak and the combi does work. You really can't OD the bacteria, but you can OD the bacteria food, which causes explosive growth.

Looking at your fotos, you clearly have a lot of bacterial growth and not the typical bacteria I associate with carbon dosing, which is more of a beige-cream coloured film. Certainly, there are many other types of bacteria which will be fed by carbon dosing. Carbon is a basic metabolite for all living things.

An idea, which may help. Instead of dosing Start2, try dosing with just vodka for a week (same quantity) and see if this changes the bacterial growth. Start2 contains more than just carbon sources. The mix may be benefiting certain unsightly bacterias. I have tried various combinations of carbon sources (and still am) to see what actually may happen. Growths such as you have I have never encountered. What ever the source of the bacterial growths is, they are still bacteria and require a carbon source, a nitrogen source AND a phosphate source. If one of these elements is missing, then the growth wouldn't be so strong and recurrent. There seems to be a nutrient depot of some sort in the system. Identifying it seems difficult, but, as some point it must get used up and the bacteria will retreat.

The STN you are getting is probably from a sudden nutrient defficiency. This is often seen in carbon dosing when one increases the dose too quickly. The bacteria assimilate the nutrient source faster than the corals can adapt. By adapting, most corals need to reduce their zooxanthellae, which, if not reduced slowly, can actually poison the tissues causing necrosis. This is a poorly understood phaenomena.

In your case, I think I would slowly cut back on the carbon dosing in general, as you don't read high levels of nutrients and this is then a less is more system. Once the PO4 is at 0.03 or lower, then the system has stabilized in general. Continuing high doses of carbon will simply deplete the level of PO4 too much, which does starve the corals. NO3, as well, should still be readable, say 2ppm or so.

A question, how much skimmate are you getting per day?
 
I have been battling the same bacteria for almost a year. I have tried starving it out, stopping start2 dosing, increasing bacteria dosing, more flow and lots of other stuff to no avail. I will be following closely to see your result. Subscribed!
 
Jammie
I just tested PO4 & NO3 both ZERO as they have been. I wonder with these so low if taking zeo reactor out for now might be a good idea?

My skimmer has a drain tube so can't say how much skimmate per day. I did clean the neck & lid today, got a lot of the beige slimy paste out, it has been making good foam.

I have not dosed any carbon source for more than a week now. I am reluctant to dose any kind of carbon source when every one agrees I have excess bacteria growth. I don't want to encourage any more of this growth. I do get the light brown film on glass, sand, plastic & a little on rocks, comes off very easy


Jammie & austin93
The fine clear fuzz can not be scrubbed off, it has been there for months every since I killed the hair algae. The dark grey stuff under the fuzz is like a piece of felt.

I guess I will do some more water changes & keep doing what I'm doing for now, unless I get some more new info.
 
Jim,

I wouldn't remove the zeolith filter. This is a basic part of the filtration system and is a living part of the aquarium. Every time it is disconnected, you are making a major change in the system. The best way to control the filters efficiency is through the carbon dosing, plus the flow rate. With little carbon to process, the filter will no longer remove large amounts of wastes. Carbon is the key, not the filter itself. One can actually run a small system without a filter, simply with good water circultation and carbon dosing. Not as efficient, but possible.

Also, do not stop completely with the carbon dosing, simply cut back to a point where you reach the correct balance. Otherwise, you may kill-off too much of the system and then you will start to have growth cycles of algae as nutrients become available. What happen is, the algae react to the sudden supply of nutrients, grow a bit, the aquarist then takes action through carbon increase and the algae dies, releasing its metabolites back into the water column. You start a viscious cycle. The trick is to stay a course.

I would look to add some scavanging fish, such as a few blennies, to get a good clean-up crew established.

and just one 'm' in my name, please!:dance:
 
If I could ask another question. I've wondered for some time if it's possible for a reef tank system with plenty of water volume, filtration (LR, carbon, socks ect), large skimmer, strong flow & lighting, don't you think it's possible that the addition of both carbon source dosing & zeo reactor could be too much of a good thing?

Finding the balance between too much & too little as proven to be very difficultfor me. I have learned it is bad to do too much too fast, but I do have trouble continuing to do the same things when things are not going well.

I don't mean to whine or be a pest, but two times now I've taken nutrients too low or too low too fast enough to fade or STN my corals & yet I still have algae or cyano & the hole time PO4 & NO3 both zero. It would help a lot to understand this or for it to just go away!

& sorry bout the extra m Jamie
thanks again all
 
Jim,
you're not whining, you're frustrated! I would be, too. Taking things from a simple, logical point of view, in order to have algae growth, there must be nutrients somewhere to allow this growth. Not necessarily a bad thing. Some nutrients must be present. I do have algae growth in my tanks, some quite a bit, depending on the type of environment, but there are animals in there that feed on the algaes and bacterial films. Therfore they tend to constantly disappear. If nothing ate these things, they would be a problem.

Now, getting back to the nutrient source, if this is simply stored in the rocks, it will go away in time, but the left-overs from the algaes will take a lot longer to disappear. They do not simply dissolve into the water column, they need to be eaten by something (bacteria to fish). Which brings me to general tank population.

Judging from the fotos you sent, you have relatively little going on in the tank at the moment. More life will compete with the algaes for space and available nutrients. I would consider what types of creatures I want to see and which one I really need to maintain a reef-type environment. More corals is clear, but smaller animals, such as crustaceans, featherdusters, sea stars (brittle stars) can all be a part of the set-up and will help to maintain the reef.

As to your first question, maintaining a tank without a zeolith filter, yes, there are more ways than one to approach the system. A zeolith filter is a controlable, bio-entity, which is why we use them. It will not out-compete (over-filter), as long as it is in proportion to the bio-load. (your bio-load is too low and doesn't contain enough variety, IMO). I'm not sure you have grasped the difference between the filter itself and the carbon dosing. They are completely different items, partly interdependant on each other. You can run a system with just carbon dosing and no zeolith filter. It will not have the capacity to maintain much diverse life, but it will work after a fashion. Some people use a DSB with carbon dosing, which is very difficult to control. The zeolith is simply a filter medium. Yes, it has particular qualities that make it especially good for such a filter system, but there are other alternatives, such as siporax or similar. They have good capacity, but are not quite as effective in most cases (there is a debate going on over various filter materials, as typical). The bottom line is, a filter is an important part of any system. It's controlability is a major factor in choosing the type of filter. The carbon source is simply a food for the bacteria, nothing more. It is not a filter. You can have the carbon dosing by itself with a limiter capacity to maintain a bio-system. The filter allows one to increase this capacity by raising the efficiency of the bacterial system. By controling the amount of carbon dosed, one can control the efficiency fo the filter.

Things that one should not do are to make any quick, drastic changes in the filter system. Slowly raise or lower the carbon dose, or the water flow through the filter. The same goes for adding animals to the system. Not too may at one time and keep an eye on the nutrient levels. A healthy system is actually very adaptable and flexible, but everything has its limits.

Also, I am still suspect of the nutrient levels. I would try to get another test kit for the PO4, such as that from Rowa, which is much more accurate than the Elos. I have often found that there were considerable amounts of PO4 not being read by the Elos kit. I like Elos, but this kit is simply not their best. Try at your fav fish store and see if they have something better. I have often read 0 PO4 with a kit and then tested with Rowa and had 0.14 PO4, which is at that critical level that feeds algaes particularly well. I may be wrong, but this is for me a bit strange. One should always test something present, otherwise the kit is not accurate enough.

I think you know most of this, but restating it differently often makes a new picture and clears a few more questions. I wish I could help you better, really.
 
Jim,
you're not whining, you're frustrated! I would be, too. Taking things from a simple, logical point of view, in order to have algae growth, there must be nutrients somewhere to allow this growth. Not necessarily a bad thing. Some nutrients must be present. I do have algae growth in my tanks, some quite a bit, depending on the type of environment, but there are animals in there that feed on the algaes and bacterial films. Therfore they tend to constantly disappear. If nothing ate these things, they would be a problem.

Now, getting back to the nutrient source, if this is simply stored in the rocks, it will go away in time, but the left-overs from the algaes will take a lot longer to disappear. They do not simply dissolve into the water column, they need to be eaten by something (bacteria to fish). Which brings me to general tank population.

Judging from the fotos you sent, you have relatively little going on in the tank at the moment. More life will compete with the algaes for space and available nutrients. I would consider what types of creatures I want to see and which one I really need to maintain a reef-type environment. More corals is clear, but smaller animals, such as crustaceans, featherdusters, sea stars (brittle stars) can all be a part of the set-up and will help to maintain the reef.

As to your first question, maintaining a tank without a zeolith filter, yes, there are more ways than one to approach the system. A zeolith filter is a controlable, bio-entity, which is why we use them. It will not out-compete (over-filter), as long as it is in proportion to the bio-load. (your bio-load is too low and doesn't contain enough variety, IMO). I'm not sure you have grasped the difference between the filter itself and the carbon dosing. They are completely different items, partly interdependant on each other. You can run a system with just carbon dosing and no zeolith filter. It will not have the capacity to maintain much diverse life, but it will work after a fashion. Some people use a DSB with carbon dosing, which is very difficult to control. The zeolith is simply a filter medium. Yes, it has particular qualities that make it especially good for such a filter system, but there are other alternatives, such as siporax or similar. They have good capacity, but are not quite as effective in most cases (there is a debate going on over various filter materials, as typical). The bottom line is, a filter is an important part of any system. It's controlability is a major factor in choosing the type of filter. The carbon source is simply a food for the bacteria, nothing more. It is not a filter. You can have the carbon dosing by itself with a limiter capacity to maintain a bio-system. The filter allows one to increase this capacity by raising the efficiency of the bacterial system. By controling the amount of carbon dosed, one can control the efficiency fo the filter.

Things that one should not do are to make any quick, drastic changes in the filter system. Slowly raise or lower the carbon dose, or the water flow through the filter. The same goes for adding animals to the system. Not too may at one time and keep an eye on the nutrient levels. A healthy system is actually very adaptable and flexible, but everything has its limits.

Also, I am still suspect of the nutrient levels. I would try to get another test kit for the PO4, such as that from Rowa, which is much more accurate than the Elos. I have often found that there were considerable amounts of PO4 not being read by the Elos kit. I like Elos, but this kit is simply not their best. Try at your fav fish store and see if they have something better. I have often read 0 PO4 with a kit and then tested with Rowa and had 0.14 PO4, which is at that critical level that feeds algaes particularly well. I may be wrong, but this is for me a bit strange. One should always test something present, otherwise the kit is not accurate enough.

I think you know most of this, but restating it differently often makes a new picture and clears a few more questions. I wish I could help you better, really.
 
Thanks for reply Jamie

Your right it is good to hear a concept explained more than one way, it helps.

I'm putting together a club group buy for snails & crabs. I put about 12 each of 4 or 5 different kinds of snails & 12 more hermit crabs in about 4 months ago, almost all the snails are gone now. But I'll try some more again, also the hermits did well so will get more of them too. Had two urchins too, they both gone also. I do have 2 fat tangs & a fat blenny.

None of the online venders I buy from have Rowa test kits, but I have talked to the local club before about buying a Hanna LR phosphate tester. would that be as good or better?
On the subject of test kits, I got a new Elos ph test kit because my tropic marin kit is getting old. my ph probe siad 8.35, tropic marin kit said 8.3 + or -, new Elos kit said 8.5.
makes me wonder why we test at all if our kits are so inaccurate.

I'm resisting making any changes even though my instincts say if something is wrong do something. Trying to remember the go slow thing. It is odd to me how most corals look good, some are noticeably happy & growing, while others are dying from the bottom up.
 
Jim,

the Hanna is as good, if not better. They are expensive and take a bit of time to use, but many swear by them.

Test kits are a problem. Many companies do not manage to maintain good quality control. Also, there is a market for less accurate kits (fish only tanks). They are cheaper, but are not accirate enough for a good reef system. As to pH, I rarely measure it. My main parameters, other than nutrients (NO3 and PO4), are Ca+ (1210-1250), Mg+ (1300-1400) and Alk (6.5-7.5 KH). If these are in line, then the pH must follow. This is a basic law of marine chemistry. PH fluctuates according to the amount of dissolved acid, typically from the Calcium Reactor. A pH from 6.8-8.5 are found in various parts of the oceans, which shows how relative this measurement is. KH can fluctuate with this, but the Ca+ and the Mg+ are pretty constant. Another element to watch is potassium (K+ =380). There are few kits for this, but it is important. Regular water changes will typically keep this in line.
 
One more thing I meant to ask earlier. Why do the zeo/ULN people suggest ALK of 6.5-7.5 & every one else 8-9? Mine runs as low as 7 but usually 7.5-8.
 
Natural sea water never has an Alk higher than 8.5 (very rare) and is generally around 7. At this carbonate concentration the metabolism of marine animals is evolved. A higher concentration causes tissue damage in many creatures, especially in many corals, which will show tip burn at higher Alk values. Pushing the animals to a higher Alk value simply places them under stress.
 
One thing I notice in the pictures of the problem (algae) tanks is the lack of a clean up crew. What are you guys using in that respect?
 
I use a Zeolith filter and have started using MB7 along with Start2 and a ZeoReactor. I believe Kolognekoral is correct in many of his recomendations and observations. If you are using Zeo, please review the guide. It may take several months for the entire system to get to ULNS. In the interem there will be nutrients leaching from the rocks that fuel algae growth. Over time, the algae problem will begin to go away so long as you have an export method....Snails, Crabs, the basic Clean Up crew.

I have not had any issues with using MB7 since I started using it. I started using MB7 for a few reasons. 1 - My newly purchased bottle of Bac was just out of date when I recieved it and in using it, I started noticing some algae issues. I think it is not good / full strenght. 2- I wanted the bio diversity of another possible bacteria product to help with maintaining ULNS within my tank. I too have had some algae growth even though I have run Zeo for over a year. My rocks seem to be leaching nutrients. The algae only appears in a few places. I have removed the rocks and scrubbed them and the algae comes back in the same places. This leads me to believe that there are particular rocks that do have excessive nutrients inside. It makes sense to me that the algae comes back in the same places. I have noticed that the re-growth is slowing in some places and not returning in others after I have removed it.

Interestingly, I am running an I-Tech Skimmer on my system and there are times when the skimmer pulls a good amount of really nasty gunk out of the tank and others when it doesnt seem to pull much at all. (especially after I change the Zeoliths)

Lastly, I would recomend dosing only MB7 / Bac (I alternate a maintenance dose) and Start2 (daily as recomended in the Zeo Guide). I did notice clearer water and better overall conditions when I started using MB7. After a while, my SPS really started lightening up from the lack of nutrients. At that time, I started back half dosing Xtra and Amino Acids (Zeo products since I had them).

Please feel free to post any questions regarding my mixed method system and I will answer as thoroughly as possible.
 
I had mentioned couple post back that I had put about 50 new snails in few months ago & almost all have died, hermits did better. Any way I'm ordering more snails/crabs this week.

The nutrients in rocks has been mentioned, & I understand how that could be, I just don't know how there could be that much in the rocks. I started the zeo soon after setting up & have had the problem for months now, & the algae did grow on plastic just as well as rock.
But what the hey that makes as much sense as any thing else.

Some one just today told me about the MB7 thread, I read it & had posted the question that sounded much like zeo system & were they more or less the same? No one has replied yet. It sounds like your saying it is a different take on the same concept?

I have a large reeflo skimmer fed from overflow with a 100 micron media bag on discharge, & I'm always surprised how much stuff flows through the skimmer. Even though the skimmer takes a lot out, a good bit still goes though.
 
I would plan on scrubbing all the rock the night before your snails/crabs arrive and they should be able to keep it in check. My bet is this will take care of your problems.
 
Back
Top