Zinc
- Thread starter Acromaniac
- Start date
But on the other hand the 3 Triton tests were consistently showing higher readings for those 2 than the reference solution...which may allow for a safeguard use for those that like to "experiment"
It might not be the "be all & end all" but its more of an idea than nothing.
I think it's how we learn by people exploring outside of the box.eg Joe (JBNY)
Large dose of common sense applied of course
jason2459
Well-known member
Trust me I have and do go outside of the box. Check the threads I do start. But when something is known to be leathal why dose it when there's enough in the food you feed already unless you have a reliable way to test.
I agree the ICP-OES is an ok way to get an indication and tracking of elevated levels of something. But I do not agree that it's useful as a safeguard for anything or useful to know how much to dose of something in the area of the trace or minor elements.
I agree the ICP-OES is an ok way to get an indication and tracking of elevated levels of something. But I do not agree that it's useful as a safeguard for anything or useful to know how much to dose of something in the area of the trace or minor elements.
blanden.adam
Team RC
Zinc is a rather ubiquitous metal that's found at trace levels pretty much in and on everything. Much of my PhD work is/was on Zn2+ binding proteins, and I can tell you that without special purification methods, it's almost certainly in your water, in the food, in your salt, etc., at least at trace levels. Even after passing deionized water through a MilliQ (which allegedly produces 18.2 MOhm water out of the last filter), I still have ~2 nM Zn2+ (~0.1-0.2 ug/L) in the water by the time I get it to my experiments without further purification, and that's much purer than we use as RO water in our tanks. In other words, I really wouldn't worry about it.
But, if you must, use ZnSO4. ZnCl2 is extremely hygroscopic, and will turn any dry powder you try to store into a slushy in a couple of weeks/months without proper storage under a dry atmosphere.
Edit: A later post pointed out I was ambiguous when I say "I really wouldn't worry about it." What I mean is, I wouldn't worry about it's level getting so low it becomes a problem, because it's already everywhere, probably at sufficient levels. When that gets balanced against the risk of overdosing it (it is known to be toxic to corals afterall), I would not dose it in my tank. If I felt I was low on Zn2+, I'd do a water change or feed more heavily, as was suggested earlier.
But, if you must, use ZnSO4. ZnCl2 is extremely hygroscopic, and will turn any dry powder you try to store into a slushy in a couple of weeks/months without proper storage under a dry atmosphere.
Edit: A later post pointed out I was ambiguous when I say "I really wouldn't worry about it." What I mean is, I wouldn't worry about it's level getting so low it becomes a problem, because it's already everywhere, probably at sufficient levels. When that gets balanced against the risk of overdosing it (it is known to be toxic to corals afterall), I would not dose it in my tank. If I felt I was low on Zn2+, I'd do a water change or feed more heavily, as was suggested earlier.
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blanden.adam
Team RC
I apologize for my ambiguity and thank you for pointing it out (edit incoming). I wouldn't worry about dosing it because it's already everywhere, probably at sufficient levels.
I would absolutely worry about dosing it to too high a level, because of it's known toxicity.
If it were my tank, I would not dose it.
Its a SPS thing - the never ending push for better colouration....turning over rocks if you will.
I'm not trying to push its use just posting this so some that don't understand why people are experimenting are.
eg: a couple of post's copied from the Australian Coral farm "The Farm" Thread
That thread is here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2500838
Edit: I also looked at that Palintest meter awhile ago & that doesn't seem to offer anything better than what a Hanna multiparameter can for accuracy on Zn & as far as i'm aware the Triton ICP is still the "best" we have available as hobbyists??
I'm not trying to push its use just posting this so some that don't understand why people are experimenting are.
eg: a couple of post's copied from the Australian Coral farm "The Farm" Thread
That thread is here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2500838
Edit: I also looked at that Palintest meter awhile ago & that doesn't seem to offer anything better than what a Hanna multiparameter can for accuracy on Zn & as far as i'm aware the Triton ICP is still the "best" we have available as hobbyists??
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I am one off the partners at the farm we are using all metals from zinc copper maganese nickel Colbats you name it these trace can not be replaced by water changes because of NSW is so low in metals you will need to change 50 to 70% per day of your water just to try to keep up with demand of coral and microorganisms and algae most of the metals on the market are that **** weak that i would not even bother we run 30 to 40 % higher in metals for close street
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
blanden.adam
Team RC
As a partner, could you share your metal depletion data, your target levels, and your growth/coloration results with and without your dosing scheme?
At the moment we are doing a paper on trace metals should be finished in February with Southern Cross University the paper contents will be trace element uptake growth and colour.
What i have notice is when different trace metals are added Alk and Calcium would drop
Alk would drop from 135ppm to 115ppm over a 12 hours and calcium would also but only 30 to 40ppm per day in saying this we have about 6000 frags in each system which is 11000 lts each all under natural sunlight
I'm willing to share the main metals which are iron maganese zinc and copper thses level are on
Iron 0.34 ppm
Maganess 0.98 ppm
Zinc 0.45 ppm
Copper 0.35ppm
We make up a solution with 1lt
Mn is 245mg
Zinc is 89mg
Copper is 67mg
Iron 2grams
Then we dos 40ml x 2 per 11000lts
I can post up photos of photos tomorrow of growth or look on our facebook site or have a read of the fram forum
Cheers chris
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
What i have notice is when different trace metals are added Alk and Calcium would drop
Alk would drop from 135ppm to 115ppm over a 12 hours and calcium would also but only 30 to 40ppm per day in saying this we have about 6000 frags in each system which is 11000 lts each all under natural sunlight
I'm willing to share the main metals which are iron maganese zinc and copper thses level are on
Iron 0.34 ppm
Maganess 0.98 ppm
Zinc 0.45 ppm
Copper 0.35ppm
We make up a solution with 1lt
Mn is 245mg
Zinc is 89mg
Copper is 67mg
Iron 2grams
Then we dos 40ml x 2 per 11000lts
I can post up photos of photos tomorrow of growth or look on our facebook site or have a read of the fram forum
Cheers chris
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
disc1
-RT * ln(k)
Where are you proposing is the sink for these metals? Where are they going? Even when they are consumed, they don't disappear. They are catalytic in all the biological reactions they are involved in, so they don't have to be replaced in the creatures.
blanden.adam
Team RC
Interesting. We all know trace metals are important, but for the most part they are so difficult to track and optimal levels so poorly defined that it's difficult to justify considering them. I look forward to the paper.
As an additional question -- what is your dosing system? Calcium reactors or something else?
jason2459
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing the information. You're not the only ones I know of trying elevated levels to increase coral growth instead of forcing corals to do other activity.
A few questions besides what was just asked in the post above.
1. How do you test for those metals reliably?
2. How would the average hobiest?
3. This is for a frag tank right? Has any testing gone into a full reef system with lots of fish, lots of feeding with various foods including heavy algae based diets, and water changes being done say at a rate of around 1% daily?
4. Any documentation done to see what is happening to the coral holobiont? Besides just water parameters?
5. Any concern with dosing a certain trace element and having contaminants in another supplement having the same trace metal(s)?
We use both calcium reactor and 3part dosing
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
Jason ,
We have been dosing metals for some time now we use the palintest9100 which gives us about 75% of the testing we need if we need more we send it to Southern Cross uni
For the average hobby tank there is already companies making these trace elements like Kz tropic marin sailfert but i found the metals to be that low thats its not doing anything because of the higher nutrients in closed systems or hobby tanks
We run a coral farm here in Australia that is open to the elements so a out door system with about 300 to 400 fish per system fish are healthy so metals dont harm them one bit
If you look up the trace elements in nsw the levels of trace are so little and all you need is for your phosphate levels to be over 0.02 and the trace elements will get binded but do remember nsw po4 levels is 0.0018 from memory so very low out at the coral reefs here in Australia,
There is a paper out on goolge trace elements from balling thats a good read but you can start from there
Cheers chris
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
zooxanthella, algae ,microorganisms bacteria, corals yes you are right they dont disappear but they get binded and the organism are unable to take them up because of p04 levels which is the same for alk and calcium
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
jason2459
Well-known member
Thanks for the input. I look forward to any peer reviewed papers that come out of this.
Yes, I've seen some back and forth with Randy and Hans-Werner. Randy's points made more sense to me.
There's certainly more to learn but at the same time caution is needed to those of us that can't reliable test for these elements that are at trace levels and the harm that can come from it.
Yes, I've seen some back and forth with Randy and Hans-Werner. Randy's points made more sense to me.
There's certainly more to learn but at the same time caution is needed to those of us that can't reliable test for these elements that are at trace levels and the harm that can come from it.
These photos taken under natural sunlight dates are up there
Maganese iron zinc copper
Now solution 2 will be nickel Colbats added to that mix
Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef
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