Zoa/paly ID project -- Open discussion for possibilities

[RokleM]

As nice as zoa.id is perhaps its time for all of us that frequent the zoanthid forum of RC to start making a general identification thread? Or perhaps it's time for one of us to create zoawiki? Either way a venue designated for morph identification and care focusing on ease of use and discussion would really help the hobby out.

:thumbsup: If you guys/gals want to do something like this, and there is something the staff can do to assist/facilitate, let us know. I think the dislike and 5-10x duplicate names we're seeing on many "ID" sites is making them less and less valuable.

Thoughts?

 

[rtparty]

Just a quick idea I had.

I know this sort of out there already with other websites but have a glossary at the beginning where Mods (or someone in charge) can add links to the exact post where to find info.

Have people post pictures of the named zoa/palythoa and describe their care for them. What lighting, flow, and parameters. What are you dosing or feeding? If possible track down the lineage for the coral.

Make sure a template is made and FOLLOWED. Any post that does not follow the template, should be deleted. Don't let the thread/ID page turn into a discussion area. It needs to be a quick and simple index.

For example, I go and buy a Captain America palythoa and want to figure out what it needs. I go to the thread and click "Captain America Palythoa" and it takes me right to the post about them. I see three or four morphs and a quick history. I also learn if it likes high light, low light, high flow etc... We also need to make sure that the "original" coral is pictured. If Captain America originated from Company A, that picture needs to be shown first, if possible. Then show the different morphs that have taken place.

I hope that helps or was at least in line with what you posted Rokle.

Thanks

 

[organism]

I think the problem is that even though more experienced hobbyists can tell the difference between a lot of duplicate zoanthids that look pretty different depending on what lighting they're under or what the water conditions are, most people can't or don't want to. That's the issue with id'ing zoanthids, 99% of the time it's all about the guy wanting to put his name on it, not about contributing anything useful to the hobby. A thread like that would have everyone arguing about how theirs is different/not different in no time...

Naming zoas isn't about id's, it's about marketing, and imo, and this is just me, there's already plenty of that in the id forum as is without a magnet thread for all the hobbyist vendors. Just my 2 cents...

 

[organism]

Make sure a template is made and FOLLOWED. Any post that does not follow the template, should be deleted. Don't let the thread/ID page turn into a discussion area. It needs to be a quick and simple index.

For example, I go and buy a Captain America palythoa and want to figure out what it needs. I go to the thread and click "Captain America Palythoa" and it takes me right to the post about them. I see three or four morphs and a quick history. I also learn if it likes high light, low light, high flow etc... We also need to make sure that the "original" coral is pictured.

Thing is the vast majority of zoanthids have the same or similar needs, all of which can be found by searching the forums, and most don't look like the "original" in most tanks. There's no specific need for each specific zoanthid, it would just be a marketplace where everyone that has available frags posts pictures under the guise of information.

 

[XSharkboyX]

I agree with organism 100%.

There is no such thing as a "care sheet" (or shouldn't be) for specific "named zoas and palys"... Most of them are all the same morphs under different lighting. You as a reefer are obligated to find the sweet spot for them in your system. No two systems are alike so how can u generalize care of animals that act completely different from system to system...? :worried:

It is quite frightening to me that people are too lazy to figure it out themselves with trial and error reefing. This hobby is about learning... This new generation of reefers want everything handed to them on a silver platter...

 

[Friday Night]

To be honest most people that want ids just want a quickie. In and out. Coralpedia link and you on your own. I dont feel the need to build something great for those that just want a price/id check and then bounce.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Naming Database ????

Naming Database ????

I didn't want to be accused of hijacking anyone's thread for my own political reasons, so I'll post my reply here.

I wrote my thoughts on this 5 minutes after it was posted, and spent all morning trying to water it down to one paragraph. Got tired of cutting it down to nothing so I wouldn't offend anyone as that is honestly not my intent and never is with any of my replies. With that, I'm tired of cutting it, so I'll just post it.

Since you are asking Rokie, I think it is an utterly and completely a waste of time, energy and space. Why? It literally boggles my mind to this day why it is so important to know the name and ID of every one of thousands of polyps in the ocean and in aquaria. You ( not you ) can't own them all. This practice has created a sea of "collectors", when we should be focusing on reefing and being reefers, there is a dynamic and distinct difference. Names and ID's have morphed the zoa hobby into people setting up tanks, loading them up with 1 to 3 polyp frags, hoping they live long enough for a single polyp to grow before it is chopped off and sold to recoup their cost. That's not reefing and it is killing healthy corals for gain for those who don't know what they are doing. Is anyone concerned besides me? Zoanthids are not Beanie Babies.


For those who have been told and mislead, knowing the name of anything will not keep your polyps alive, it will not make them proliferate, it will not guarantee their health, it won't do one single thing but tell you what silly name someone else is calling your 1 to 3 polyp frag that may or may not live once you get it home. How a polyp performed in one tank is not indicative of how it will perform in your tank. If anyone tell you that it is a lie, this is why no seller will give you a guarantee on the growth claims they make when you see, ( fast grower ). They are not all the same and your specific ability/knowledge, tank maturity, lighting, parameters and a host of other variables will soley dictate how they will thrive or perish in your tank.

What cha talking bout Mucho? It's not because I have an utter dislike for names that I don't want to see ANOTHER naming database, it's because many have been CON-vinced to believe that knowing the name is somehow the main focus of keeping zoanthids and playthoas, and it is not. Knowing the name isn't going to increase your longevity in reefing. With all due respect, people should learn how to reef instead of learning every name which Peter Polyp Pimp has given a polyp. Often the same polyp has multiple names and you're sold a bail of hype to get you to buy something which is supposed to be new, rare and just discovered. Well, it isn't. The continual focus on names merely fosters the misdirection this hobby is heading. How can you know the name, how can we even consider another database for names and many don't even know if you have a zoanthid, a palythoa, a proto palythoa or and Epi-zoa? Did you know that knowing the difference could mean the difference between failure and success with those polyps you just paid an arm and a leg for, but we don't discuss that here. How can we focus so much on names, and there are people here in this very forum who have their energy focused on something which does nothing for their system?


How can we focus on creating ANOTHER DATABASE for names, and there are reefers here in this very forum who have trouble solving basic reefing issues because they have no knowledge or those issues are seldom if ever discussed here. Those are the people I want to help, but I'm not going to waste time on names and the constant arguing and debating over a NAME people. Naming and its focus has killed more polyps since 2005/2006. Mucho, you're crazy. On the contrary, there are people who know every named polyp there is, but can't keep their polyps alive. How is this possible? Easy, the focus of reefing as it relates to zoas and palys is the name, ID's, pictures, hype, lies and these new "And now introducing", "just released", "Limited Edition", "only 10 being released". What has it done to keep your polyps alive? Healthy? NOTHING, but is the popular focus now.


If RC is ready willing and able to help facilitate the advancement of this forum, lets start with the Zoanthid Information Draft at the top of this page. If RC wants to help, and I think that is great if they do, then let’s focus on the meat of the forum instead of the name of the dressing on the side salad. So I ask each of you, which will have an immediate impact on your potential reef keeping experience as it relates to zoa and plays. Is it another thread to help you identify them by name, or a thread which informs you on their captive care/needs, their origin, requirements, how others have solved the same issues you might be having etc etc?

Please let’s not get it twisted and say I'm using this thread for another political cause. I want you to be a success as a reefer. I am the one who pushed to have the ID sub forum created along with the picture sticky at the top of this page. Even though I hate names and could care less about pictures, I pushed to have them created when RC didn't want to cut up the forums with sub forums, so please save the attacks. These are my thoughts and that is what was solicited here. NO, this isn't a rant, it's an opinion, my thoughts, what I believe in.


If anyone wants to do something for this forum, I politely and respectfully ask that you to get involve with more than just responding to ID requests, threads which have a name in their title and picture threads of look what I just bought. There is so much more to polyp keeping than eye candy, names, hype and ID's. I want to see you in this hobby for years to come. I want you to grow a reef and not just build one. I want to see you gain knowledge form this forum and all the others, then what their name and ID is.


I counted a dozen questions on the last 6 pages with less than 5 replies and many with zero replies. Let’s focus on those issues which make a difference. Let’s focus on sharing something other than the same 4 topics, ID's, names, pictures and hype. Let’s focus on growing this forum and making it what it use to be and can be. Or, we can make it a place to just lurk at pictures, names and ID's. You can find that just about anywhere. Other than being entertained, don't you want more than just that?

While I admire the effort to bring something to this forum, another naming database does nothing for this forum or reefing. Lets collectively work together to make what we have better than what it already is. It's just my opinion.

Mucho Reef


PS. We have gone from filling up the entire first page of the zoanthid with new activity, to now having 5 and 6 days of post on the first page with the same 5 or 6 threads with replies?

 

[XSharkboyX]

With all due respect, people should learn how to reef instead of learning every name which Peter Polyp Pimp has given a polyp.

*applause*

+1000 Post of the year!

 

[MikeandNicole]

How about a compromise.

Instead of just another naming database that you can compare too, how about a naming database with actual care instructions. For example, I got a frag of PPE and I did not need a database to tell me what it was. However, I did need these forums to find out they like lower light. I had them too high up and they were losing their skirt. After reading here they like lower light I moved them down and they have fully recovered and are growing.

I commend you for your passion on the proliferation of knowledge on zoas and I agree with all your points about people knowing more about the names then the actual care. We know the name game is not going away we have discussed that numerous times in numerous threads. Why not take the name game and turn it into a care issue.

There has been much more discussion on here about zoa care in the past few months and why not continue that. There does not need to be a line in the sand that everyone on one side is a name gamer frag whore and everyone on the other side are "purists" that only buy 1,000 polyp colonies for .25$ and tear down anything that is a name (obviously using hyperbole here). There can be a middle ground where the two sides work together to the common goal of tanks with zoas growing over the rims and down the sides of the tank.

You have said time and time again you make the anti-name game threads to teach noobies who just joined the hobby and don't know any better. I think sometimes we may turn a lot of people off to good knowledge by attacking them and what they are doing. I think a good compromise will not drive them away and they will stay on the board and actually learn something.

Again just my opinion but this board is for the free exchange of ideas.

 

[organism]

Instead of just another naming database that you can compare too, how about a naming database with actual care instructions. For example, I got a frag of PPE and I did not need a database to tell me what it was. However, I did need these forums to find out they like lower light. I had them too high up and they were losing their skirt. After reading here they like lower light I moved them down and they have fully recovered and are growing.

So you searched the name of it in the forum, ie, naming database, for their care, and found out that they liked lower light. I'd say that's a pretty good argument for the database already being available in search function form

Besides, here's the only care tip for 100% of zoanthids and most corals: start them low in the tank, then slowly move them up if they look like they could use more light, and move them down if they start fading. See, one sentence just saved us all that work.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

How about a compromise.

Instead of just another naming database that you can compare too, how about a naming database with actual care instructions. For example, I got a frag of PPE and I did not need a database to tell me what it was. However, I did need these forums to find out they like lower light. I had them too high up and they were losing their skirt. After reading here they like lower light I moved them down and they have fully recovered and are growing.


I'm only one person and I don't expect my words to carry any weight. If the people want it, it will happen.

Your concern on the proper placement could have easily and quickly been answered by the owner of those polyps. I tell people this all the time, don't rely on speculation, go to the source/origin which is the previous owner. If you bought on line, inquire of the depth of the tank, if they ran carbon, type of lighting, bulb, ballast and height of bulb off the water. Even knowing this, does not guarantee survival. There are a host of conditions which must be met.

Not being mean at all, I'm just talking so please don't take this the wrong way my friend. Those polyps you mention which didn't do so well at the top of your tank, you should always placed new arrivals on the substrate or in a QT, away from touching anything in your tank. You should never make more than 2 moves upwards to the final placement spot. Just because something was high or low in another tank, doesn't necessarily mean that's where it will go in another tank. No two systems are the same, and again, these are the topics we don't discuss here. I've own 100 colonies, not frags, colonies, there are not 100 seperate conditions that warrants a care database for all those polyps. Longevity and success in this hobby, whatever one considers that to be, is achieved with knowledge and understanding of reefing. It isn't achieved via knowledge of names. BTW, I'm glad they came around for you.


I commend you for your passion on the proliferation of knowledge on zoas and I agree with all your points about people knowing more about the names then the actual care. We know the name game is not going away we have discussed that numerous times in numerous threads. Why not take the name game and turn it into a care issue.


When we collectively lead the charge to drop these polyps back down to $ 1 or $ 2 per polyp as they were for the 14 years I was involved in reefing prior to 2005, I will be the one leading the charge in support for all the names you guys want. Until then, I have to hold fast to my convictions even if I have to stand alone. I've purchased 2 corals in 5 years and that is the way it will stay for me.

There has been much more discussion on here about zoa care in the past few months and why not continue that. There does not need to be a line in the sand that everyone on one side is a name gamer frag whore and everyone on the other side are "purists" that only buy 1,000 polyp colonies for .25$ and tear down anything that is a name (obviously using hyperbole here). There can be a middle ground where the two sides work together to the common goal of tanks with zoas growing over the rims and down the sides of the tank.


Please, I want to apologize to any and everyone if that is the impression I have given. I am not drawing a line in the substrate here. I am not calling anyone bad or evil. I don't want the Hatfields fighting the McCoys again. When a named or pictured thread is posted, the forum blows up. I have seen pages of discussion arguing over a name, ....a name ??? I've seen pages of discussion on who had it first and who released it......who released it? There's no such thing. I have seen reefers who have been reefing 20 minutes telling everyone what is and isn't extremely rare. This is what people want now. If true, fine, I say have at it. I also have watched many who have collectively said they left this forum because of this. This forum will be what each of you make it. If you have a reef tank, then your ideas, feedback and opinions are vital in this forum on a daily basis.

You have said time and time again you make the anti-name game threads to teach noobies who just joined the hobby and don't know any better. I think sometimes we may turn a lot of people off to good knowledge by attacking them and what they are doing. I think a good compromise will not drive them away and they will stay on the board and actually learn something.

I am not the only one who does this, there are many here who do the same thing. I have never ever attacked anyone. It's my opinion, and often we are accused of attacking as a means of shutting us up. I wish I could share with you the stories of those who have thanked me and many many others for these threads as they didn't know the truth. Usually it's sellers who want me to shut up and stick my head in the sand. I can't, they can attack if they must, but I won't.

Again just my opinion but this board is for the free exchange of ideas.

Hey no problem my friend. Glad to hear from you and it's purely ok if we agree or disagree and thanks for the kind reply mate as I certainly meant no harm to anyone ,,ever. :beer:


Mucho Reef

 

[MikeandNicole]

Trust me, I know the reason you are so passionate about all this is looking out for other people. Just trying to create some dialogue and perhaps play a bit of a devil's advocate. When everyone is repeating the same opinion to the same people with the same opinions, that is when progress slows.

As far as searching the threads yes I could do that and obviously did. As for starting everything low and moving it up, yes that is generally the truth. However, listing out where the polyp thrives is what is more imporant. What if you move zoas up too far and damage them? To use my case what if they looked great down on the sandbed so I started to move them back up and caused more stress versus just knowing they do well low and leaving them there. Also, what about the cases where high light high flow is the answer? If you leave them down too low you could also stress them so it would be nice to know to move them up quicker than other zoas.

Mucho you are right as the buyer I should have inquired, and in the end it is on us to understand how to handle them. However, I would rather hear from the experts on here then someplace/someone that may not have a full understanding.

Always fun having a civilised discussion, and just for you mucho I am going to post some pictures of my zoas later. :beer:

 

[Gamepro_inc]

I agree that there should be a middle ground I have named polyps and un-named ones and some of my favs are the un-named ones. I do find that certain polyps do better in different placments and as you stated the person you are buying from is the best source for info. ...However I get 50% of my polyps from my LFS and most are ugly and brown when I buy them but I have a nack for being able to recognize which ones will color up nicely and which ones are just ugly zoes/palys. My LFS has no info on source or care other than "it does fine under this lighting in my tanks" (no its ugly and brown). So I do wish some sort of care guidlines were available but I feel that even if one existed it would be over ran with suppliers saying this "one" is hard/rare/limited edition/ ect on the care level just to run up the hype for how its an expert only thing which just makes the noobies want to buy it more...Sorry im gettting off subject. Mucho I always agree with what you say I just wish something like classification could be done with zoes. Indo-polys get this care, Atlantic-polyps need this, african-polys this care, ect. I am over generalizing but you get the point.

 

[organism]

As for starting everything low and moving it up, yes that is generally the truth.

Nope, aside from a few SPS, starting everything low and moving it up slowly is always the truth, there's no "generally" about it...

However, listing out where the polyp thrives is what is more imporant. What if you move zoas up too far and damage them? To use my case what if they looked great down on the sandbed so I started to move them back up and caused more stress versus just knowing they do well low and leaving them there.

If they looked fantastic on the sandbed, and then you moved them and started looking bleached, then by listening to your corals you already had an answer

Every tank is going to be different, one person's "high" pc light intensity might be another guy's bottom-of-the-tank-in-the-shade 400w 20k halide intensity. What thrives in one guy's tank might melt in the same spot in another person's tank. Temperature, water chemistry and salinity can have a huge impact on how much light a coral can use, and it's up to each hobbyist to know their individual tank, or to use the search engine when it doubt.

If we did a thread on where each specific zoanthid in a tank will thrive, we might as well continue down the more harm than good path and do one on "what's the best weight to thrive?". That way we can all agree that the best weight humans can thrive is 180lbs, because that's what works for me, so everyone should start there regardless of any individual variables.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Organism, everything you just said I just wrote, LOL. I saw your post and deleted my own, LOL

I would listen to every word he just said, it is as simple as that. I wrote a thread once entitled, "listen to your reef, it will yield all of the answers". MIKEANDNICOLE, just like Organsim said, your polyps told you with non-verbal communication where they wanted to be.

NO two systems, no two polyps, no two situtaions are alike.

Mooch

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I agree that there should be a middle ground I have named polyps and un-named ones and some of my favs are the un-named ones. I do find that certain polyps do better in different placments and as you stated the person you are buying from is the best source for info. ...However I get 50% of my polyps from my LFS and most are ugly and brown when I buy them but I have a nack for being able to recognize which ones will color up nicely and which ones are just ugly zoes/palys.

Do you know why all you see are those ugly brown ones now? Who do you think is buying up all the colorful ones and chopping them up to 1 and 2 polyp frags? They don't make it to the LFS now. Many people here who work at LFS have stated this on many ocassions. This is why I refuse to buy them.


My LFS has no info on source or care other than "it does fine under this lighting in my tanks" (no its ugly and brown). So I do wish some sort of care guidlines were available but I feel that even if one existed it would be over ran with suppliers saying this "one" is hard/rare/limited edition/ ect on the care level just to run up the hype for how its an expert only thing which just makes the noobies want to buy it more...Sorry im gettting off subject.


My friend, there is no care sheet. Only 1% of the ocean floors have been mapped, we have explored less than 20 % and some have stated less than 10%, that leaves 80% to 90% untouched. Though zoas and palys are not found in all the oceans of the world, can any one of us begin to imagine just how many new zoas and plays are out there. Can there be that many different variations in our own biotopes to keep them alive? The key to keep hundreds if not thousands of zoas and plays alive in one system is fidning that happy medium. By that I mean dialing your tank in. Making very slow and well documented changes and noting what works and what doesn't. That's what I have done for years.

Mucho I always agree with what you say I just wish something like classification could be done with zoes. Indo-polys get this care, Atlantic-polyps need this, african-polys this care, ect. I am over generalizing but you get the point.

If 1/4 of your polyps are Indo, 1/4 are Austrailan, 1/4 are Carribbean and 1/4 of them are African and a few Atlantic, how will classification make any difference?

How can we find a happy medium with/for clasification, when we have reefers who are still checking temps with a mercury thermometer with $ 1,000worth of polyps in their tanks and feel this is sufficient and normal? How can we move to classification when a hydrometer is the norm for many checking their salinity? How can we move to classification, when we can't get beyond the same 5 questions answered and sometimes misunderstood on a weekly basis? How can we move on to classifications and there are so many basics in reefing that are being missed on a daily basis here? No, I am not trying to belittle anyone, that's not me. My point is classification at this point puts the cart before the horse. You start creating Naming and Classification Databases here, the gougers will come here, look up their polyp and leave. You will create more issues than we already have.

I see dozens of questions which and many threads which get no attention and no one has an answer for, but we are going to move towards classifications? No I say lets focus on husbandry, if we focus on that, you won't need classifications, trust me.

I see 40 visitors on average in the forum who won't sign up or log in, does anyone ever wonder why?



Mucho Reef

 

[Zoalander]

Mucho this is why you are so respected in this hobby. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't bought z's and p's and paid 20 bucks for a one polyp frag but I could see how bad it is for the hobby and why it would drive people of it. I also see that this forum should be more about how to keep zoas and palys and what new techniques people are trying to advance the hobby.

 

[Jarred1]

Bravo Mucho bravo!

 

[DEEC77]

For those who have been told and mislead, knowing the name of anything will not keep your polyps alive, it will not make them proliferate, it will not guarantee their health, it won't do one single thing but tell you what silly name someone else is calling your 1 to 3 polyp frag that may or may not live once you get it home. How a polyp performed in one tank is not indicative of how it will perform in your tank. If anyone tell you that it is a lie, this is why no seller will give you a guarantee on the growth claims they make when you see, ( fast grower ). They are not all the same and your specific ability/knowledge, tank maturity, lighting, parameters and a host of other variables will soley dictate how they will thrive or perish in your tank.

What cha talking bout Mucho? It's not because I have an utter dislike for names that I don't want to see ANOTHER naming database, it's because many have been CON-vinced to believe that knowing the name is somehow the main focus of keeping zoanthids and playthoas, and it is not. Knowing the name isn't going to increase your longevity in reefing. With all due respect, people should learn how to reef instead of learning every name which Peter Polyp Pimp has given a polyp. Often the same polyp has multiple names and you're sold a bail of hype to get you to buy something which is supposed to be new, rare and just discovered. Well, it isn't. The continual focus on names merely fosters the misdirection this hobby is heading. How can you know the name, how can we even consider another database for names and many don't even know if you have a zoanthid, a palythoa, a proto palythoa or and Epi-zoa? Did you know that knowing the difference could mean the difference between failure and success with those polyps you just paid an arm and a leg for, but we don't discuss that here. How can we focus so much on names, and there are people here in this very forum who have their energy focused on something which does nothing for their system?

This +1 times a million Mucho

If they looked fantastic on the sandbed, and then you moved them and started looking bleached, then by listening to your corals you already had an answer

Every tank is going to be different, one person's "high" pc light intensity might be another guy's bottom-of-the-tank-in-the-shade 400w 20k halide intensity. What thrives in one guy's tank might melt in the same spot in another person's tank. Temperature, water chemistry and salinity can have a huge impact on how much light a coral can use, and it's up to each hobbyist to know their individual tank, or to use the search engine when it doubt.

If we did a thread on where each specific zoanthid in a tank will thrive, we might as well continue down the more harm than good path and do one on "what's the best weight to thrive?". That way we can all agree that the best weight humans can thrive is 180lbs, because that's what works for me, so everyone should start there regardless of any individual variables.

+1 x a million too organism

There are hundreds of ways to run a successful reef. What works for one may not work for all. I started my tank as a FOWLR about 12 years ago. My tank is very old school and hands on, but it works for me. Would I suggest you run your system the same way absolutely not.

I truly feel it's more important to find out about where they came from then what you call them. I've been so tempted to say that's a pretty pink zoanthid when being asked about ID's

Go look in coralpedia.com and you tell me what the difference is between theese 3 morphs besides the lighting.

Baby Got Back
Blackbeard
Blue Kisses


I'm sure everyone knows the names of these and recognizes them. But can anyone tell me where they come from and what makes their care different?

The difference between ID's in this forum and say the SPS forum is that they in the SPS give the scientific name of the species not the LE name. Which enables you then can research and actually get a general idea of the care and requirements.

Every system is different but the one constant in a any successful system is stability. If your perimeters are stable you'll more then likely be successful. No name required.

~Dee~

 

[RokleM]

I didn't want to be accused of hijacking anyone's thread for my own political reasons, so I'll post my reply here.

Nothing wrong with that. I threw it out there as it's been mentioned multiple times. If you guys aren't interested in the idea and project, then it is what it is. I don't personally care either way.