Zoa/paly ID project -- Open discussion for possibilities

[XSharkboyX]

exact same can be said for tanks as well so what good is a care sheet period ?



so not know parms or lighting from previous tank doesnt make a differance ?


so not knowing where that colony came from doesnt make a differance ? not knowing if it needs dirtier water, or if a cleaner system would be better is useless ? i havent been into zoa's as long as some { only 6 years } and i may not have had as many morphs { 100+ more around 200 } and have seen where some zoa's just wouldnt do as well as others in my system, no matter where placed in my tank, how about a species that doesnt handle being fragged, yes i know frags frags frags, but it is a reality and people are going to do it and why shouldnt reguardless they know how to frag and what one's to just leave alone because of the high melt off after you mess with them
and here is a quote from Dr Mac

Noob, I think you misinterpreted my statement. Of course it matters what the previous owners params are. I was mainly commenting on the fact that people often place so much emphasis on lineage, or "who" had them first...
I think the article you posted by Mac proves my point further. To sum up that article in about one sentence "Zoas/Palys can be found in almost any area of the ocean, are exceptionally resilient, and can tolerate a wide range of params..."
Point proven, it doesn't really matter where the colony is collected from, in a tidepool, on a shelf, in a lagoon, on a reef, as long as you are a skilled Reefer and they are healthy, you will have no problem with them. Again this is from my personal experiences over the years.
Another reason I don't really see a point in this is because of the simple fact that not many people buy colonies anymore. Frags, frags, frags. Like you stated.
Tell me what's more important, knowing the exact location the original colony was collected from, or knowing the basic husbandry skills to keep it happy in your system?

 

[Scopus Tang]

I am still finding one problem, how would we gauge how much flow is high, medium, or low flow? Same with light, it would just take too much time and there are too many different types of polyps to take these measurements for. What we could do is put together a detailed guide on how you should acclimate your new polyps to your system.

Would be a good guide.

While I agree with you that caring for your corals is important. I don't really care who's tank they came from, or who collected them, or what their name is. That information is not important to me. (Might be to others, to each his/her own...) I am a reefer, I can and will make the coral/invert happy in my system. It's my obligation as a hobbyist. If I am unfamiliar with the species I will look it up in one of my books.
I have put in many hours reading books, articles, and notes about reefing and such. I strongly advise this to any other reefer. There is no substitute for research. There are no shortcuts in reefing. Which is why I still firmly believe a species by location care sheet is a bit silly imo. You must learn to think for yourself...
Like I said before it is my opinion. If the rc zoa forum wants it, more power to them. Have at it. I think they will be disappointed the first time they bring home a Z. sociatus from Fiji and find that the frag/colony does not like the params listed on the reef central care sheet for it... :worried:

I am a reefer also, I also can and will make the polyps happy in my tank. I don't really care about trade names, but I am familiar with them and I have used them for ease in identity of polyps. I think arguing over trade names is silly, and I think that trade names currently mean nothing. Arguing about lineage in todays hobby is pointless, and wild colonies are commonly named the same as those that have been tried and true within the hobby. So buying Tub's Blue today does not guarantee that you are in fact getting blues that are linaeged back to Tubs. As I stated before, I am interested in the scientific names, but don't feel that scientifica names can be accurately done to any large degree. I would also argue that they cannot be accurately determined by looking them up in any reef aquarium book on the subject, nor is there to my knowledge any guide book on species of zoanthids.

So where's this thread headed since it kind of unraveled at the end?...

The geek in me wants to know more about the different zoanthid species, I can help with putting together the origin info as well as issues to look out for that are more common in each region if someone that knows anything about species wants to work together since I'm lost on those

Organism, I would be happy to work with you and whoever on this. I don't think we'll be able to put a specific name with all groups, but we can do what we can. I'll send a PM.

Also, just an FYI, doesn't look like I'll be changing my user name any time soon.

 

[XSharkboyX]

As I stated before, I am interested in the scientific names, but don't feel that scientifica names can be accurately done to any large degree. I would also argue that they cannot be accurately determined by looking them up in any reef aquarium book on the subject, nor is there to my knowledge any guide book on species of zoanthids.

A complete species list is not feasable for anyone here on RC. To my knowledge there are not any books in print on Zoa/Paly classification taxonomically speaking, because no one knows how to do it. There are however several books on general care (which is what I was refering to. I generalized books that i read into articles as well.), and there are endless articles out there that have been written by grad students or scientists dealing with the classification projects... Whether or not you have access to them is another story. To undertake a project of this magnetude would probably take your entire lifes work... Scientists have been working on this for decades, what makes you think someone here can do it in a weekend? Eric posted just a few of the articles written here... Even he agrees it is a complete waste of time...

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic102741-9-1.aspx

A few words about zoanthids taxonomy. Indeed, as Dr. Burnett wrote Zoanthid taxonomy is currently in a state of chaos. Most forms we keep in our tanks belong to the genus Zoanthus (Palythoa, Protopalytoa, etc, seems less diverse). The main thing we need to solve is to decide if all these endless forms belong to one species, or are separate species. Molecular methods (DNA, etc) possibly could help, but unfortunately the way how persons why currently focused on applying molecular methods on zoanthids taxonomy do their studies just add the chaos to already chaotic zoanthid taxonomy. So, the answer on first topic of this thread is simple: most species of Zoanthus we keep in our tanks could not be identified to species level.

 

[Scopus Tang]

A complete species list is not feasable for anyone here on RC. To my knowledge there are not any books in print on Zoa/Paly classification taxonomically speaking, because no one knows how to do it. There are however several books on general care (which is what I was refering to. I generalized books that i read into articles as well.), and there are endless articles out there that have been written by grad students or scientists dealing with the classification projects... Whether or not you have access to them is another story. To undertake a project of this magnetude would probably take your entire lifes work... Scientists have been working on this for decades, what makes you think someone here can do it in a weekend? Eric posted just a few of the articles written here... Even he agrees it is a complete waste of time...

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic102741-9-1.aspx

I'm not sure why you assume that you know what is and isn't feasable for anyone here - as you assuradely don't know the background of everyone on the site . Additionally people do know how to classify these taxonomically, its called DNA analysis, and it is currently being done, there just isn't a lot of progress on. I also research, and it happens that I have researched this particular area quite extensively. You might want to do some current research on the subject, try Reimers instead of Borneman. I do agree that undertaking this would indeed be your life's work.

Where do you get the impression that I think anyone could do this in a weekend? If you have arrived at that conclusion based on any of my posts then you are reading a whole lot more into my posts than I am writing (or maybe you're still not reading them?). Why is it that you seem to want to argue about it so much? If it isn't feasible IYO that is fine. Those of us who want to waste our time in the effort can do so, and you can continue your crusade as well.

 

[XSharkboyX]

try Reimers instead of Borneman. I do agree that undertaking this would indeed be your life's work.

http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=48

http://www.pensoft.net/journals/zookeys/article/378/abstract

http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=75

http://mise-ryukyu.blogspot.com/

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=54

If you failed to notice, I said a "complete list." I am quite familiar with Reimers and what he has been working on (He has been working on Zoanthus/Palythoa taxonomy for years, and even he doesn't have all the answers or a complete list of species yet.) He has stated in an article that even with DNA testing it is sometimes impossible to distinguish between species. I assumed the findings of Reimers were common knowledge at this point. His research is still subjective, as it is not finished. So is all the rest.
With that said, I encourage you to take this list on. You sound like you have the motivation to do it. :beer: