Zoanthus species and associated symbionts in the Aquarium

[Fcwham]

Cool! Its Zoanthus solanderi or Zoanthus gigantus, depending on if it was collected in the Caribbean or the Pacific. I'll be able to tell you once I do the genetics on the symbiodinium. If you don't have many polyps of something that your interested in I can always wait till it recovers and take a piece off of its base or wait till a second head forms.

One of the things that I think scientists have not done but should have is keep live type specimens after doing the genetics. When I get them I'll run as many as ten different genes on the host and ten on the symbiont, then upload them to public DNA databases. That information exists for many wild collected zoanthids but if I looked up a DNA sequence for Zoanthus gigantus for example it would give me the sample number it came from. Then if I was real interested I could find that sample in Dr. James Reimer's collection preserved in ethanol, I might even be able to get some more DNA out of it. But it would be nice if the "Type Specimens" with their DNA on the public databases were preserved this way and recognized, traded and kept among the aquarium trade. That way if in the future I needed that sample again, to do an experiment or to determine the validity of some other new species I could just call upon the aquarium community and bam there it is because there are thousands of people out there that are happy to provide the service of long term care takers of the type specimen to each species. It might also be helpful to aquarists in that you could have the "official Z. gigantus" and you could compare it to other things in your tank to identify them, if there were an official set of Zoanthids like that it might clear up the taxonomy for many people.

 

[benjaminspades]

That's pretty awesome what you're doing and I feel honored to be a small part of it. Do you happen to have a link that you can PM me that I can read up on some zoas from the DNA database?

 

[Fcwham]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

just search the database for zoanthus or palythoa, you will see all the DNA records.

but I think you'll find the search a bit unsatisfying, in that there are no accompanying pictures and the information on the particular specimen each DNA sequence comes from is somewhat limited. As I said, you could still track that specimen back to a jar of preserved tissue, but it stops there. It seems like you should be able to track down a living individual but unfortunately you cant. The practice is mostly because other animals (mouse, zebra, butterfly) will eventually die so saving the tissue is all that matters for archiving purposes. Corals and symbiodinium offer an exception though because they could be kept alive indefinitely. So why not do both.

Check out the database, its paid for by your tax dollars. If you have questions about how to use it let me know. The main utility is that those sequences are there and have the identity attached to their records. So I can take something that is unknown and then get a genetic sequence from a gene. I can then search the database for sequences that match, when I get a match I know that my unknown thing is the same as the record on the data base. So then I've identified the species.

 

[A. Grandis]

Hi Fcwham:
That's very nice!!
Thanks so much for sharing!!!

Could you please explain better the relationship between Zoanthus spp's identification and genetics on the respective symbiodinium? Is that one of the "must to do" to certainly identify zoanthids' species?
I'm asking that after reading the post #21.

Also, would be great if you would list the ways used by scientists to correctly identify Zoanthus spp. and other zoanthids.

Thanks,
Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

For the sake of science and fun! And thank you for doing this it's very interesting to me

Thanks for the picture.
Would you be able to take a shot of your Acrozoanthus?

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Hi Fcwham:

Could you please explain better the relationship between Zoanthus spp's identification and genetics on the respective symbiodinium? Is that one of the "must to do" to certainly identify zoanthids' species?
I'm asking that after reading the post #21.

excellent question!!

Species of Zoanthus and Palythoa mostly exist in Sibling species pairs between the Pacific and Caribbean. You can kind of think of them as identical twins as far as species go . Because there hasnt been a lot of evolutionary time since the split between the Caribbean and Pacific many of these species pairs appear identical. So you can not tell them apart by looking at them, additionally, the genetics haven't changed much either so even the DNA can be a little unclear. Since I can tell which species pair it belongs to by just looking at it, the only thing left is deturming which of the two in that pair it is. I can do that by determining what ocean it came from. The two ocean basins offer different Symbiodinium communities so by looking at the Symbiodinium I can determine the origin of the specimen.

So yes in terms of identifying a zoanthid from the aquarium trade it is a must do. But if I was collecting in the field I would already know what ocean basin it came from so I wouldn't have to deal with the confusion between species pairs.

Also, would be great if you would list the ways used by scientists to correctly identify Zoanthus spp. and other zoanthids.

So prior to Genetic tools Zoanthids and Symbiodinium were named by morphological features like number of tentacles, septa, color and oral disc size, or characteristics of plates for Symbiodinium.

Ten years ago thats where we were, however species assignment is supposed to reflect mating abilities and the sharing of a gene pool and evolutionary fate. Morphology is only supposed to serve as a proxy for these patterns but can not test them directly.

Then genetic technology came along and maybe you can predict the problem we found from your own observations...


Zoanthids are very morphologically plastic so there were +100 named species of Zoanthus over the last century or so, but many Zoanthids that look different are actually the same so Dr. James Reimer has been taking the +100 names and removing all the names that are redundant leaving a significantly smaller number.

The opposite pattern is true for Symbiodinium, all those single celled golden brown balls look the same, so there were only 6 species of Symbiodinium previously. My labs work has been mostly focused on showing that there are actually hundreds of Symbiodinium species as well as providing means to tell them apart by genetics.


So the short answer to your question about zoanthids is that Septa and tentacle counts, oral disc size and height, coenenchyme development, ecological distribution and mating patterns all are used to describe a species. Once a species is described and identified, the genetic sequence of several genes from a "voucher specimen" are uploaded to NCBI (linked above). Then most any researcher that can do genetic sequencing can identify unknown specimens by matching the unknown to sequences on that database. Partially eliminating the need to preform the sometimes subjective morphological characterization.

 

[A. Grandis]

That is so great!!! :thumbsup:
Thanks very much for the valuable info!!

All what you've said just made so much more interesting to keep learning about zoas!!

We have mainly about 4 or 5 types of morphological different Zoanthus spp. here, as far as I know. They look different in shape and size. Now, I would say I'm probably not the best collector and this info is only what I've observed 'til now. We probably have many different species of Zoanthus distributed among those types, but mainly about 4 or 5 distinctive morphological shapes/sizes with different colors each.

Of course there is no way for me to identify them correctly, but I would guess that the most common of them are Z. gigantus. At least that I would be brave enough to guess.
There are 2 types of Palythoa that I know, but the far most common is the P. caesia, I would say.
Protopalythoa spp. are also among the most common in some of the areas.
I've never seen other types of zoanthids yet, like Acrozoanthus spp. and others.

Do you happen to have any recent list of zoanthids' names with their respective description for identification from Hawaii? Pictures? What about their symbionts?

Thanks very much!
This thread is getting even more interesting now...
Have a great weekend!!

Hope others would come with more interesting questions...

:bounce1::bounce2::bounce3::bounce1::bounce2::bounce3:

Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Grandis, I started a reply but then it grew to 6 pages. So I decided I'd attempt to collect a few more pictures then submit it to a reef aquarium magazine as an article. I've PM'd you the key i made for identifying the major Zoanthids commonly found in the hobby.

Also of note. Protopalythoa is no longer a valid scientific name. All members have been collapse into Palythoa.

You'll see that the key is not inclusive, i didnt put things on there that are not common in the hobby. The full article has a section devoted to each as well as several pictures to aid in identification.

 

[benjaminspades]

I got the package! Kepe you guys updated!

 

[A. Grandis]

Grandis, I started a reply but then it grew to 6 pages. So I decided I'd attempt to collect a few more pictures then submit it to a reef aquarium magazine as an article. I've PM'd you the key i made for identifying the major Zoanthids commonly found in the hobby.

Also of note. Protopalythoa is no longer a valid scientific name. All members have been collapse into Palythoa.

You'll see that the key is not inclusive, i didnt put things on there that are not common in the hobby. The full article has a section devoted to each as well as several pictures to aid in identification.

I'm sorry, I was referring specifically to Hawaiian zoanthids, but that's ok. It is nice to learn more about any type of zoas.

Very good!!! That will be great!! A zoa article with some nice pictures... What else do we need? Thank you! Please let us know when that gets published!!!

I didn't know that Protopalythoa was already eradicated. I thought it was still in the process. Could you please PM me the link for the article or any other reference, if there is? Thanks very much!!! I would like to have that. Thanks in advance!

I've got the PM and I appreciate the key! Hope your article gets published soon.
I think we'll need a zoa book too!!! What do you think? :thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2108/zsj.23.87?journalCode=jzoo

 

[A. Grandis]

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2108/zsj.23.87?journalCode=jzoo

Thanks Fcwhan,

That paper is only to suggest that they Palythoa and Protopalythoa are congeneric, published back in October 2005. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Could we just assume that the Protopalythoa nomenclature was eradicated since that paper came out?
I thought we needed more work with the genetics/nomenclature in order to define such terms.
Am I wrong?

So much to learn... I'm glad for this thread!
Thanks very much for the input!

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Im pretty sure it was officially done in a subsequent publication but there's not a lot of discussion involved when an official nomenclature change is made, normally the justification is found elsewhere. This paper is the justification as far as I know. All current publications use Palythoa.

 

[A. Grandis]

Yeah, I believe that should be enough then.
There is no sense to keep calling Protopalythoa just because...
Thanks again!!

Please keep us posted...

Grandis.

 

[benjaminspades]

hello guys!

I am sending out polyps today. I have included 5 specimens.

WILL POST PICTURES SOON! I am short on time right now.

 

[Fcwham]

I'll take pictures on my end too and discuss some of the process: DNA extraction, sequencing etc...

 

[benjaminspades]

Did you need pictures for your magazine? It cost me 20 to overnight it which is not too bad. I sent Vietnam zoas(dragon eyes?/eagle eyes) and for the life of me didn't send you the acrozoanthus lol. The last vial I accidentally spilled so I was not able to send it to you. I can however send you on our next try! =)

 

[benjaminspades]

Pics!

Pics!

The dragoneyes/eagle eyes I was told are from vietnam. The mint green palys IDK where they are from. The others I have attached pictures to make it interesting

 

[A. Grandis]

Nice shots!
Where is the Acrozoanthus picture, please?

We just love zoas, don't we?!?

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Cool, I'll let you know when I have them in hand. Thanks for overnighting them, I didn't mean for you to do that but it's great that you did. I've sent zoas all around the world in wet paper towels and rarely if ever loss them even on 5 day trips. But at 20$ you can't beat that price for overnight.

The vials had DMSO in them, the chemical isn't all that bad but I hope you cleaned it up real good. I get it on my hands all the time nothing to worry about. They also preserve DNA at room temp for months.

I'll post again later today.