Zoanthus species and associated symbionts in the Aquarium

[benjaminspades]

Bump

 

[Fcwham]

I got them this morning, apparently USPS shipments come into a central place on campus and then are distributed from there putting them on a 1 day delay. That sort of sucks, I will not be using USPS for this in the future. I talked to other people in the department and found out that PSU has an awesome deal with UPS and I can send and receive overnight with them for $10-15 to most places so I'll be favoring that in the future.

Good news is that the samples seem fine for the most part.
DMSO preserved polyps

And a polyp pulled out of the DMSO preservative

When I take samples from reefs I used this preservative, you can see in the pic above that the polyp is in real good condition, will make for great DNA extraction.

The wet paper towel polyps are now glued on to frag tiles and on a frag rack. I'm going to give them a few hours to see if they will open up before taking pictures.

I'm getting a bunch of polyps from Japan next week so there will be a bunch of zoa genetics going on here real soon. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[benjaminspades]

Do you think the zoas will be fine after 2 days in that wet paper towel? I used RO water idk if it makes any difference.

 

[Fcwham]

You used RO fresh water? LOL , they might not make it in that case. Oh well, the major point is to have good DNA, so that is here and well preserved. If the polyps open thats great too because I'd like to be able to culture the Symbiodinium, and I'd like to see if I can make them change from one type to another too.

In the old days Zoa keepers use to trade by sending polyps in standard mail in wet paper towels. Even if it takes 5 days they almost always make it, they are adapted to being baked in the open sun for 2-3 hours every day with no water. They are very happy to live in a wet paper towel for a few days.

I dont know why zoa keepers dont trade like that anymore, at least I dont see threads on it. then again you were able to get a rock with 200+ zoas for $30 then so people sent frags without worrying about the possibility of loosing them.

 

[A. Grandis]

But the water used on the paper towels for the shipping is normally saltwater...

Grandis.

 

[benjaminspades]

oops lol So did the zoas die?

 

[A. Grandis]

I don't think it would make huge difference (salt water or fresh water) to tell you the truth. Unless you really wet (damp!!) them up and they stay for long time in the box. I personally would prefer salt water (tank water).
When the zoas are healthy they can ship pretty well.
Temperature is what normally would damage them, beside other external/internal injuries.
Some times people cut them off from the colony, glue them up on plug$ and ship them right a way.
If we don't wait 'til the zoas are well before shipping they are more vulnerable to stress/shocks.
Banging the box around will sometimes damage zoas too.

The wet paper towels are mainly to cut weight and save money. When I collect zoas they normally do better when transported under water, collected at the same site, where they were found. That way, if not damaged, they open on the same hour after placed in the tank. Even after a correct and well done preventive dipping.

By the picture on post #42 they look fine to me.
Lets wait for Fcwham to let us know...

What about your Acrozoanthus sp.?
Any picts, please?

Good, good thread!!!

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

The pic in 42 is preserved in DMSO, that guy is for sure dead, but the DNA is in good condition. DMSO preserves DNA at room temp, but it kills tissue on contact.

The ones in the wet towel I haven't taken pics of yet. I figured I'd give them a shot at recovering. They may make it, they get rained on from time to time at low tide as well.

The major thing is the DNA, which I've got. So I'll be able to do the genetics. If this goes well maybe others will be interested in sending frags to ID in the future so I'm not to worried, at some point I'll have some polyps to experiment with.

I'll have a look at them on Monday morn and let you know what they look like.

 

[Fcwham]

So the ones that were not in DMSO are gone. But thats why I wanted a replicate preserved in DMSO so I'll take this as a learning experiance to:

Always get one polyp preseved in DMSO and use UPS in the future.

When the samples arrive from Japan I'll start DNA extraction and document it here for everyone. The Editor of reefs.com has accepted the article for the Summer issue so stay tuned for that too. I think it will clear up the confusion in zoa taxonomy in the hobby a good bit.

Grandis, what did you think about that key I sent? It should ID most things in Hawaii, with the exclusion of the weirdo things that are uncommon to keep in aquariums. I didnt include Palythoa tuberculosa/caribaeorum but I guess I could, I mostly wanted something that covered everything on ZoaID

 

[benjaminspades]

Can I have key too =) I want to learn!

 

[Fcwham]

Most definitely.
Its on my work computer, I'll PM you in the morning with it.

 

[benjaminspades]

Send me another set! I have more polyps

 

[A. Grandis]

...
Grandis, what did you think about that key I sent? It should ID most things in Hawaii, with the exclusion of the weirdo things that are uncommon to keep in aquariums. I didnt include Palythoa tuberculosa/caribaeorum but I guess I could, I mostly wanted something that covered everything on ZoaID

Hi Fcwham,

Yes, you could add P. tuberculosa/caribaeorum to it, of course. Also Palythoa caesia could be included.
The key is simple and a very nice way to add info to my mind.
Without pictures it's still kinda hard for me to tell you that I'm positive of what is what on the list. But I really like the names side-by-side and the observations on colors/marks, besides the Indo/Caribbean info.
I would appreciate if you could send me pictures of them named, when you can. That way I would be able to figure out a bit more and make sure that what I took from the key is truly the right thing, visually speaking.

Things I've learned:
1) All those Protopalythoa spp. are now Palythoa spp., and one of them is P. mutuki.
2) I know how to identify Zoanthus gigantus (Into-Pacific) confirming what has been thought for years around here and on documents.
3) Zoanthus vietnamensis is not so common, but I do have an idea of what you've talking about.
4) Now I now that Zoanthus sociatus is probably not found around the Indo-Pacific region, which for many years was thought here and probably has been documented in the past. I would think that's probablydue to recent studies. So that's new to me...
5) Confirmed that we probably don't have Palythoa grandis here in our state (HI).
6)Palythoa singapura is probably those old called "Protopalythoa spp." that we have around here. By the way, very hard to tell them (palythoa spp.) apart!!!

Wel, that's what I have in mind for now and I really wish I had time to send you some samples, but my working schedule at this time of the year is just impossible, specially with the kids out of the school!! Please tell me until when are you planing to receive samples for the paper.

Please send me a PM if you wish to share pictures of those species/names, or you could simply post here.

Once more I really appreciate the key!!!
I'll still try my best to follow this thread!

Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Hi Fcwham,

Yes, you could add P. tuberculosa/caribaeorum to it, of course. Also Palythoa caesia could be included.
The key is simple and a very nice way to add info to my mind.
Without pictures it's still kinda hard for me to tell you that I'm positive of what is what on the list. But I really like the names side-by-side and the observations on colors/marks, besides the Indo/Caribbean info.
I would appreciate if you could send me pictures of them named, when you can. That way I would be able to figure out a bit more and make sure that what I took from the key is truly the right thing, visually speaking.

Things I've learned:
1) All those Protopalythoa spp. are now Palythoa spp., and one of them is P. mutuki.
2) I know how to identify Zoanthus gigantus (Into-Pacific) confirming what has been thought for years around here and on documents.
3) Zoanthus vietnamensis is not so common, but I do have an idea of what you've talking about.
4) Now I now that Zoanthus sociatus is probably not found around the Indo-Pacific region, which for many years was thought here and probably has been documented in the past. I would think that's probablydue to recent studies. So that's new to me...
5) Confirmed that we probably don't have Palythoa grandis here in our state (HI).
6)Palythoa singapura is probably those old called "Protopalythoa spp." that we have around here. By the way, very hard to tell them (palythoa spp.) apart!!!

Wel, that's what I have in mind for now and I really wish I had time to send you some samples, but my working schedule at this time of the year is just impossible, specially with the kids out of the school!! Please tell me until when are you planing to receive samples for the paper.

Please send me a PM if you wish to share pictures of those species/names, or you could simply post here.

Once more I really appreciate the key!!!
I'll still try my best to follow this thread!

Aloha,
Grandis.

Thanks for the comments, The full article has pictures and larger descriptions for each but I didnt want to send that out. It will be coming out in July. I'll add a few details to clear up the palythoa ID section.

As for sending samples, for ID and such. I'm working on getting set up so that when I do the genetics the official ID and symbiont info get tied into a database (preferably an existing one) there maybe future development in this area. I'll keep you posted.

 

[A. Grandis]

Thanks for the comments, The full article has pictures and larger descriptions for each but I didnt want to send that out. It will be coming out in July. I'll add a few details to clear up the palythoa ID section.

As for sending samples, for ID and such. I'm working on getting set up so that when I do the genetics the official ID and symbiont info get tied into a database (preferably an existing one) there maybe future development in this area. I'll keep you posted.

Sure, I understand about the pictures and will be waiting for the article then.
Yes, please keep me posted!
Thanks!

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

Just to update, I'm still waiting on the Zoas from Japan so that I can genotype them all at once.

Normally they come in about a week, its been 10 days but customs can hold things up.

 

[Fcwham]

Clearly I spoke too soon, this just arrived at my office.

Zoanthid research commencing now...

Oh and I have several common varieties on there way as well! Thank you interested aquarists!!

 

[A. Grandis]

Thanks for the update!!
Please continue keeping us posted...
:dance:

Grandis.

 

[MondoBongo]

i just have to say that this is absolutely awesome!

i am searching through the database now, and while i don't know enough to make use of much of the information contained in it, it is positively astonishing to see how many species are contained in it.

i just randomly typed in "platygyra" and have come up with a wealth of information.

as always, science rocks!

 

[Fcwham]

I extracted the DNA from all the samples today. I'll be amplifying diagnostic genes tomorrow, look for results early next week. I'll try to post a pic or two tomorrow, DNA extraction doesn't look like much though, clear liquid in a tube.