2 pairs of percular clowns in a 165 gallon aquarium?

[billsreef]

However what if the one question being asked over and over again, is answered differently depending on who answers it? In this case, the experienced clown breeders all say "don't do it". But we always seem to get someone to post "hey, it's your money, do it and let us know what happens." We KNOW what will happen

That's were it takes some of us needing to have the patience to work beyond our frustrations and keep providing the good advice

 

[Ninong]

But, OTOH, they're your dogs and your money, so do whatever you want.

Yeah, just ask Michael Vick about that idea.

:lolspin:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, being a scientist, and as one who has probably answered at least as many of the "same questions over and over" as anyone in the hobby, it concerns me when folks say something "cannot" be done, when clearly it (or something like it, as was asked in a post a few above this one) can and has been done.

Two percula pairs, I don't know as I've not looked into that one in detail and never kept any myself, but there are folks (myself included) who have kept two breeding pairs of clowns in a single tank of the size in question here. In my case, it was an ocellaris pair and a pink skunk pair that settled down and spawned regularly for several years less than 10 inches apart in a 4 foot long, 120 gallon tank. The clown pairs themselves were often less than 6 inches apart, and never showed any apparent aggression. Neither pair ever even looked to move further away that I could see. The pink skunks (in a big H. crispa) were far more concerned about their reflections in the glass than the ocellaris clowns, and the ocellaris clowns in a green tree coral seemed fairly unconcerned about any other fish being nearby.

So perhaps folks should temper their answers a bit to reflect an answer that may depend on the tank or the clown species or the clown individuals, or whatever, rather than blanket "no, it cannot be done". Maybe say it is unlikely with this species because many folks have tried it and most failed, or something along that line. But a blanket “impossible” seems unjustified, IMO.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I am not a scientist, and only gave my opinion/experiences. This is something that I will never recommend, I have seen, too many times, supposedly docile clowns (( pink skunks )) become super aggressive once they started spawning. In fact I had to sell my pink skunk pair because of their aggression -- which was directed towards dwarf angels, don't even want to imagine the damage they would have done to another clown pair.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I only stated about being a scientist to explain why I'm picky about wording of answers and advice, not to try to claim I knew any more than anyone else. I certainly did not mean it to insult anyone.

 

[Toddrtrex]

None taken -- just stating that I am just a hobbyist, never wrote a book, nor an article (( and most likely never will )), just someone who has been keeping clowns and anemones since 1992.

 

[velvetelvis]

I just wish I had a dollar for every time this question--or some variant of it--gets asked on this forum. My car *and* my student loans would be paid off.

 

[velvetelvis]

i dont mean to judge or anything, but if the experienced reefers cant handle answering the same question over and over. then dont. there is new reefers popping up everywhere and thats great, not only for RC but for the natural reefs in general. obviously they're going to have the same questions as others. yea they could do a lil reading and stuff but if they dont, you experienced reefers should be there to help, not judge the OP on not reading or whatnot. instead of helping, you make the OP feel stupid and sometimes even cause them to get out of the hobby. Now if the OP posts the same question in different threads, then ok, i totally understand the frustration. but come on guys, if these are new people, like myself, we should be willing to answer their questions with a positive attitude and with the willingness to help them out. if not, then just dont answer the question. lets not forget that we all started with these questions.

Like i said, im new here and ive seen more people getting their butts chewed out for something instead of them being helped out. If i were one of these OP, i wouldnt ask anything on here anymore and go look for ADVICE somewhere else.

Again, if its the same OP asking the same question, then LMK and ill chew him out too. lol

Lets be friends here guys Just saying

miguelp19, I'm not one of the experts here, but as somebody who answers questions for a living, I totally understand their frustration. It's maddening when people are unwilling to listen to good advice, or aren't willing to put a tiny bit of exertion into doing some research for the information they need, instead of essentially asking for people's opinions, and then shouting down all but the ones that affirm what they want to do. And in the end, it's the animals--living, breathing beings capable of suffering--who pay for ill-advised experiments that have been proven over and over again not to work.

 

[BonsaiNut]

FWIW, I only stated about being a scientist to explain why I'm picky about wording of answers and advice, not to try to claim I knew any more than anyone else. I certainly did not mean it to insult anyone.

Randy, I hear you. When dealing with animal behavior, I'm not sure there is such a thing as absolutes. I recently saw a report where a zoo in Thailand has successfully raised tigers with pigs. Baby tigers have been nursed from adult pigs and vice versa. Now if someone were to ask you "hey, I've got some pigs, and I've got some tigers, can I keep them together?" generally you would say "99.9% of the time NO". But there are exceptions...

Unfortunately, in my opinion, anyone who asks the "clown pairs in a tank" question, probably doesn't have the experience to pull it off. Therefore it is better to leave them with the "no, I would not try it" answer than "it depends based on a large number of variables, many of which cannot be controlled". I think the first is responsible advice. I think the second opens the door to a lot of experimentation with a lot of pain and suffering as a result.

Once the person asking for advice has a lot more experience with clowns, they will get a better understanding for their behavior and their territoriality, and will be in a better position to answer for themselves how many clowns you can keep in a 165.

Personal opinion...

 

[miguelp19]

miguelp19, I'm not one of the experts here, but as somebody who answers questions for a living, I totally understand their frustration. It's maddening when people are unwilling to listen to good advice, or aren't willing to put a tiny bit of exertion into doing some research for the information they need, instead of essentially asking for people's opinions, and then shouting down all but the ones that affirm what they want to do. And in the end, it's the animals--living, breathing beings capable of suffering--who pay for ill-advised experiments that have been proven over and over again not to work.

yes i absolutely agree. its maddening that these ppl dont listen and its worse that the poor animals are the ones that ultimately suffer. what i was trying to say was not that we shouldnt get bothered by these ppl but possibly take a more positive approach our answers and maybe there'll be a more positive outcome. more like "caring" for their livestock and showing them that. instead of being somewhat of jerks to them. we should encourage the growth of hobbyists and try our hardest to educate them the best way as possible. yes of course its frustrating that some dont listen, and theres some that unfortunately there'll be no way of getting into their stubborn head, but we are just jumping at the newbies and being kinda hostile towards them for asking questions that they dont know. and of course some people want to put more than one pair of clowns in a tank, clowns are absolutely amazing! why wouldnt they? but like i said, we should just find a better way of explaining why this cant happpen. there are quite a bit of ppl who will listen, others like i said, unfortunately wont.

i believe in world piece! haha jk. i sound like a beauty pageant contestant!

 

[DgenR8]

It is a risk but it's yours to take I once ran a 30 gal with 5 tomato clowns and a green carpet never had any probs and they spawned just get a fish that kinda keeps them in order certain fish will stop others from fighting mine was a big blue devil damsel he would always keep fish in order but do what you feel if they kill each other lesson learned..... if they don't kill each other everyone will be amazed on how you did it your money your tank good luck on whatever you choose

Wow, I think you win. I've been here ten years, and read millions of posts, yet you take the cake for the worst advice I've ever seen posted here. Congratulations
:celeb1:

 

[Angel*Fish]

Well, being a scientist, and as one who has probably answered at least as many of the "same questions over and over" as anyone in the hobby, it concerns me when folks say something "cannot" be done, when clearly it (or something like it, as was asked in a post a few above this one) can and has been done.

Two percula pairs, I don't know as I've not looked into that one in detail and never kept any myself, but there are folks (myself included) who have kept two breeding pairs of clowns in a single tank of the size in question here. In my case, it was an ocellaris pair and a pink skunk pair that settled down and spawned regularly for several years less than 10 inches apart in a 4 foot long, 120 gallon tank. The clown pairs themselves were often less than 6 inches apart, and never showed any apparent aggression. Neither pair ever even looked to move further away that I could see. The pink skunks (in a big H. crispa) were far more concerned about their reflections in the glass than the ocellaris clowns, and the ocellaris clowns in a green tree coral seemed fairly unconcerned about any other fish being nearby.

So perhaps folks should temper their answers a bit to reflect an answer that may depend on the tank or the clown species or the clown individuals, or whatever, rather than blanket "no, it cannot be done". Maybe say it is unlikely with this species because many folks have tried it and most failed, or something along that line. But a blanket “impossible” seems unjustified, IMO.

There is a danger in a forum like this of information becoming "fact" simply by just being repeated and re-repeated without anyone having real knowledge. If I had simply listened to the prevailing consensus about angelfish and not researched on my own and been willing to use my own judgment I would never have had 2 flames, 2 cherubs, a Herald's angel and a Singapore angel together in one tank. I was told one and that's it.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I can assure you that I am not just repeating anything -- I have tried this in the past, and learned from my mistakes. I too have multiple dwarfs in the same tank, and I there is a HUGE difference between the aggression of clowns and dwarf angels. In fact, when I added an additional dwarf to one of my tanks I have bigger issues from my mated pair of pink skunks.

IMO, there are too many people saying that having more then 1 pair of clowns in a tank is a good idea who have never seen how aggressive a spawning pair of clowns become -- even the so called docile ones.

 

[steelhead77]

Well, being a scientist, and as one who has probably answered at least as many of the "same questions over and over" as anyone in the hobby, it concerns me when folks say something "cannot" be done, when clearly it (or something like it, as was asked in a post a few above this one) can and has been done.

Two percula pairs, I don't know as I've not looked into that one in detail and never kept any myself, but there are folks (myself included) who have kept two breeding pairs of clowns in a single tank of the size in question here. In my case, it was an ocellaris pair and a pink skunk pair that settled down and spawned regularly for several years less than 10 inches apart in a 4 foot long, 120 gallon tank. The clown pairs themselves were often less than 6 inches apart, and never showed any apparent aggression. Neither pair ever even looked to move further away that I could see. The pink skunks (in a big H. crispa) were far more concerned about their reflections in the glass than the ocellaris clowns, and the ocellaris clowns in a green tree coral seemed fairly unconcerned about any other fish being nearby.

So perhaps folks should temper their answers a bit to reflect an answer that may depend on the tank or the clown species or the clown individuals, or whatever, rather than blanket "no, it cannot be done". Maybe say it is unlikely with this species because many folks have tried it and most failed, or something along that line. But a blanket "œimpossible" seems unjustified, IMO.

Amen Randy.

I have had a pair of spawning Pinks and a pair of spawning Percs in the same tank for over two years now. They are on opposite ends of the tank in their respective hosts and NEVER wander farther than an invisible line about midway between them. For the "experts" to claim that this can never be done is simply not true. I would not recommend a pair of Maroons and a pair of Tomatoes in the same tank, but, speaking strictly from experience, with some species it is clearly not impossible.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I can assure you that I am not just repeating anything -- I have tried this in the past, and learned from my mistakes. I too have multiple dwarfs in the same tank, and I there is a HUGE difference between the aggression of clowns and dwarf angels. In fact, when I added an additional dwarf to one of my tanks I have bigger issues from my mated pair of pink skunks.

IMO, there are too many people saying that having more then 1 pair of clowns in a tank is a good idea who have never seen how aggressive a spawning pair of clowns become -- even the so called docile ones.

I really wish I hadn't posted that here on this particular thread. My post wasn't directed at you or whether or not 2 sets of clowns will work in one big tank. I was just venting about all the parroting I see going on. Not that it matters what I think, but I liked your answer well enough.

I do realize that clowns are not angels , I only make the comparison because years ago when I was trying to stock my tank the feedback on this board was, "don't try it", "go ahead if you want dead fish", "there's no way to sex flames" <---- that was my favorite. I remember one guy who claimed to have seen thousands of them who was really nasty to me.


I'm really tired of this attitude:

Unfortunately, in my opinion, anyone who asks the "clown pairs in a tank" question, probably doesn't have the experience to pull it off. Therefore it is better to leave them with the "no, I would not try it" answer than "it depends based on a large number of variables, many of which cannot be controlled". I think the first is responsible advice. I think the second opens the door to a lot of experimentation with a lot of pain and suffering as a result.

To me that's saying lets just give blanket information because the masses are too stupid to have good info thrown at at them.

I know you get tired of answering the same questions from people who haven't done any research. And I applaud you for staying out here doing it. But how much harder is it to say " I don't know if that's possible or not, I don't think it is. But if it somehow it is, it's an advanced issue and I don't know how to do it or anyone who does."


There's no need to be condescending ever and for heaven's sake PLEASE don't be condescending and rude when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[velvetelvis]

I haven't seen any condescension from the experienced posters here who advise people not to attempt keeping more than two clownfish in the same tank. Of course people asking this question shouldn't be mocked or insulted. But if being politely told, "No, that really isn't a good idea, and here's why" sends the OPs into a tailspin of self-doubt, their egos are too fragile and need toughening up anyway. Being belittled is condescension. Being (politely and patiently, of course) told that as a new reefkeeper, you're better off not attempting something that has failed over and over again, isn't condescension. It's honesty.

I think when posters in these threads seem impatient and dismissive, what we're seeing is exasperation with the fact that some of the posters who are asking the more-than-two-clowns question don't actually *want* an honest, thoughtful answer to their question. They want people to endorse what they've already been told is not a good idea. This isn't true of everyone, of course; I've also seen OPs, even those who become a little defensive at first, rethink their plan and decide not to go ahead with it.

For my part, I'm opposed to encouraging people to "experiment" with living creatures who will end up suffering if things go wrong-- especially people who may not have much (or any) experience to draw upon; and especially when it's a situation that has been proven, over and over again, to most likely go wrong. Yes, everyone's heard of somebody who's succeeded, just as there are also people who live on cigarettes and fried food and sweets without getting sick--but they're the exceptions to the rule. And although it's far less important than those animals' lives and well-being, it's also true that failed experiments waste aquarists' money and cause them frustration and disappointment.

 

[velvetelvis]

I haven't seen any condescension from the experienced posters here who advise people not to attempt keeping more than two clownfish in the same tank. Of course people asking this question shouldn't be mocked or insulted. But if being politely told, "No, that really isn't a good idea, and here's why" sends the OPs into a tailspin of self-doubt, their egos are too fragile and need toughening up anyway. Being belittled is condescension. Being (politely and patiently, of course) advised that, as a new reefkeeper, you're better off not attempting something that has failed over and over again, isn't condescension. It's honesty. When you ask for people's opinions and advice, you have to be prepared for opposition as well as support. (And sometimes, opposition--in the form of advice that prevents you from making a mistake--actually is support.)

I think when posters in these threads seem impatient and dismissive, what we're seeing is exasperation with the fact that some of the posters who are asking the more-than-two-clowns question don't actually *want* an honest, thoughtful answer to their question. They want people to endorse what they've already been told is not a good idea. This isn't true of everyone, of course; I've also seen OPs, even those who become a little defensive at first, rethink their plan and decide not to go ahead with it.

For my part, I'm opposed to encouraging people to "experiment" with living creatures who will end up suffering if things go wrong-- especially people who may not have much (or any) experience to draw upon; and especially when it's a situation that has been proven, over and over again, to most likely go wrong. Yes, everyone's heard of somebody who's succeeded, just as there are also people who live on cigarettes and and white sugar and fried food and never touch a vegetable and yet die of natural causes at the age of 90--but in both cases, they're the exceptions to the rule. And although it's far less important than those animals' lives and well-being, it's also true that failed experiments waste aquarists' money and cause them frustration and disappointment.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I haven't seen any condescension from the experienced posters here who advise people not to attempt keeping more than two clownfish in the same tank. Of course people asking this question shouldn't be mocked or insulted. But if being politely told, "No, that really isn't a good idea, and here's why" sends the OPs into a tailspin of self-doubt, their egos are too fragile and need toughening up anyway. Being belittled is condescension. Being (politely and patiently, of course) told that as a new reefkeeper, you're better off not attempting something that has failed over and over again, isn't condescension. It's honesty.

I think when posters in these threads seem impatient and dismissive, what we're seeing is exasperation with the fact that some of the posters who are asking the more-than-two-clowns question don't actually *want* an honest, thoughtful answer to their question. They want people to endorse what they've already been told is not a good idea. This isn't true of everyone, of course; I've also seen OPs, even those who become a little defensive at first, rethink their plan and decide not to go ahead with it.

For my part, I'm opposed to encouraging people to "experiment" with living creatures who will end up suffering if things go wrong-- especially people who may not have much (or any) experience to draw upon; and especially when it's a situation that has been proven, over and over again, to most likely go wrong. Yes, everyone's heard of somebody who's succeeded, just as there are also people who live on cigarettes and fried food and sweets without getting sick--but they're the exceptions to the rule. And although it's far less important than those animals' lives and well-being, it's also true that failed experiments waste aquarists' money and cause them frustration and disappointment.

"Being belittled is condescension." I'm sorry but that is not what I meant by condescending. I was thinking of something more subtle than direct belittling. Condescension is " Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority." I'm saying don't act so superior especially if you don't even know that you don't know what you're talking about. There's misinformation out there that has become fact just because it's been repeated. Does no one else agree with that?

If no one experimented with living creatures there would be no aquariums. There's responsible experimentation and irresponsible experimentation. Lately I notice the term seems to usually imply the former. It seems like if someone disagrees with an "experienced poster" they are fish killers or causing too much work for the experienced posters or something.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I don't understand why when someone asks this question it isn't easier to post this from the stickies in this forum instead of getting all grumpy

Bottom line on keeping multiple clowns, rather it is of the same species, different species or multiple pairs.

You can try this. There are a couple of very rare exceptions where this has worked out in the long term. Please keep in mind that clownfish can live for upwards of 20-30 years in captivity and having multiple clownfish in a single tank for a few months or even a couple of years is no solid indication of long term success.

You need to go into the this type of venture with the idea in your head and the resources at hand that at some point in the future your are going to have to remove all the clownfish but one pair. The transition from a peaceful tank full of clownfish to a graveyard full of dead clownfish can happen literally during the course of one day; leave in the morning with a peaceful tank, return home in the evening to find all the clownfish dead.

If you are dead set on trying this and you have your expectations set so that you know at some point you will likely have to remove all but the mated pair, here are a couple of tips that might help keep things peaceful for as long as possible.

First introduce all of the fish at the same time. Second stick with one species. Third introduce small juveniles. Fourth have a large tank.

CB (captive bred) fish are a better candidate for this type of thing as all of the fish will be about the same age and size and more accustomed to living with other clowns.

If you are going to try multiple pairs of the same species or different species, a large tank is really a must. Your aquascaping should be designed in such a manner as to shield the pairs from each others view. The less they see each other the few chances for a fight to break out. Having multiple hosting sites in the tank so that each pair can claim a territory as far away from the other pair(s)̢۪s territory the better. You do not need an anemone for this, in fact an anemone may not be the best choice because anemones tend to move in tanks from time to time taking the pair with it and possibly nearer another pair. Clownfish love caves and overhangs. They also like terracotta flower pots.

You will have better luck with the least aggressive species of clownfish, like A. Ocellaris and A. Percula. You should avoid species that are noted for being aggressive like P. Biaculeatus (maroons) or A. Frenatus (tomatoes).

 

[velvetelvis]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if someone has tried to keep more than two clownfish in a tank and been unsuccessful, and has known--either through this board, or in person--other people who have tried the same thing with the same lack of success, how is s/he repeating misinformation when s/he says that keeping more than two clownfish together is not a good idea?

*Aside from the few people who have succeeded in doing so*, it's an accepted fact in books and magazines, as well as on forums, that *generally speaking* keeping more than one pair of clownfish in an aquarium is going to be problematic in the long run. This isn't an urban legend; it's a phenomenon that many, many people have experienced first-hand. Does this mean categorically that it will always happen? No, but it does mean that it's likely to happen.

Again, I apologize if I sound argumentative here. I just don't understand the references to "misinformation". While it may not be true that keeping more than two clownfish in the same system will always lead to disaster, it's happened often enough to merit a warning to anyone who wants to try it.