3 gallon set up, born 10/10/2013
- Thread starter Wingity
- Start date
Thanks for the compliment.
There was someone on NR who had a tank around a gallon. He did 100% water changes weekly and didn't have any ill effects. I don't think it's necessary, but as long as you match parameters, it shouldn't cause any harm.
Just give it some time, your tank is still very young. This hobby is an exercise in patience.
There was someone on NR who had a tank around a gallon. He did 100% water changes weekly and didn't have any ill effects. I don't think it's necessary, but as long as you match parameters, it shouldn't cause any harm.
Just give it some time, your tank is still very young. This hobby is an exercise in patience.
brandon429
Active member
it only hurts fish, so, with no fish, no harm.
another risk is pouring back in the change water too fast and stirring up a bunch of waste in the sandbed. that can be addressed by pouring slow, across the upper rock tips and letting it go back in smoothly. the only two params that need to be matched are temp and salinity.
when fish are in play, as was El Fab's tank, smaller changes can be done so they have room to swim in. he did 50% for three years, so, to test theories on whether or not large water changes are dangerous if done right you have to know these details:
-who has documented longer success using less changes?
-if he did 50% weekly, that means his corals were hanging in the air for a while until he refilled. Would it make sense that an 85% change would have killed his tank? If not, why would a 100% (were it not for the fish)
Fish in pico reefs shorten their lifespan. Fab wasn't going to get much more out of that tank as is, it crashed due to cyano which could not be beaten when he disturbed the tank and tried to move it. Going that long, on partial changes, put the tank on the edge of the cliff of no return, and since pico reefs are always prone to little unpredicted insults if you stock yours accordingly, expect a quicker death unless you have the same abilities he does.
it comes down to whether or not you want to follow the masses and get a short term reef, or follow the narrow path and get a long term one. Most people want fish, low water change work, and the 3 gallon pico will allow that for several months. That is the typical lifespan anyway so its no big deal to run a tank like that.
The only reason to do large water changes and use no to low fish loading, along with massive coral loading so the tank looks cool, is if you want a true long term tank. Short term tanks are ok, most people get bored with them at 25 mos anyway, then the algae will just give the keeper another reason to start over in another tank (using the same short term methods interestingly)
such is the circle of tanks on web forums. temporaries
here is another perspective...consider our big thread in the nanos forum where we correct all the tanks following the common pathway...pico reef pest algae problem challenge thread. see how many of those were smaller pico and nano tanks, ran with partial water changes and high bioloading.
They present to us in that thread only when near death, never as preventative. Can you imagine your tank turning out differently by month 18? The reason I offer care methods the way I do, is to save you from ever having to become part of a 60 page thread about why the publics view on how to run a pico reef is flawed endlessly.
another risk is pouring back in the change water too fast and stirring up a bunch of waste in the sandbed. that can be addressed by pouring slow, across the upper rock tips and letting it go back in smoothly. the only two params that need to be matched are temp and salinity.
when fish are in play, as was El Fab's tank, smaller changes can be done so they have room to swim in. he did 50% for three years, so, to test theories on whether or not large water changes are dangerous if done right you have to know these details:
-who has documented longer success using less changes?
-if he did 50% weekly, that means his corals were hanging in the air for a while until he refilled. Would it make sense that an 85% change would have killed his tank? If not, why would a 100% (were it not for the fish)
Fish in pico reefs shorten their lifespan. Fab wasn't going to get much more out of that tank as is, it crashed due to cyano which could not be beaten when he disturbed the tank and tried to move it. Going that long, on partial changes, put the tank on the edge of the cliff of no return, and since pico reefs are always prone to little unpredicted insults if you stock yours accordingly, expect a quicker death unless you have the same abilities he does.
it comes down to whether or not you want to follow the masses and get a short term reef, or follow the narrow path and get a long term one. Most people want fish, low water change work, and the 3 gallon pico will allow that for several months. That is the typical lifespan anyway so its no big deal to run a tank like that.
The only reason to do large water changes and use no to low fish loading, along with massive coral loading so the tank looks cool, is if you want a true long term tank. Short term tanks are ok, most people get bored with them at 25 mos anyway, then the algae will just give the keeper another reason to start over in another tank (using the same short term methods interestingly)
such is the circle of tanks on web forums. temporaries
here is another perspective...consider our big thread in the nanos forum where we correct all the tanks following the common pathway...pico reef pest algae problem challenge thread. see how many of those were smaller pico and nano tanks, ran with partial water changes and high bioloading.
They present to us in that thread only when near death, never as preventative. Can you imagine your tank turning out differently by month 18? The reason I offer care methods the way I do, is to save you from ever having to become part of a 60 page thread about why the publics view on how to run a pico reef is flawed endlessly.
brandon429
Active member
it is perfectly 100% acceptable to run your tank on tedious partial water changes, matching every param carefully, to stock your tank with fish and feed them daily, and to allow algae on your rocks as part of the new tank cycle you have read about in books for 20 years. I want more entrants into the thread, Ill take ya if ever needed
Remember this, when getting pico reef advice, ask for the thread from a poster. check to see how long that technique has been running, then evaluate the advice. if the tank is larger than yours, or running under 24 mos, that advice will probably wreck your tank in due time. But it will look GREAT for the first year
Remember this, when getting pico reef advice, ask for the thread from a poster. check to see how long that technique has been running, then evaluate the advice. if the tank is larger than yours, or running under 24 mos, that advice will probably wreck your tank in due time. But it will look GREAT for the first year
brandon429
Active member
I don't mean to hijack any thread so feel free to dismiss any info. Posing friendly challenges to reefkeeping paradigms is just fun science... In the end there are many ways to success. I'm usually trying to see if anyone has truly discovered alternate ways to pico reef success, long term, when posting. Good luck and keep us updated as the months go by
The magic timeframe for gallon reefs is between 12-18 mos. any longer than that, and standard methods for tank care will fail and produce dead corals or complete algal dominance.
The magic timeframe for a 3 gallon tank is between 12-36 months for standard methods, the triple gallonage working in favor to allow up to what el fab demonstrated. Food for thought. Most people wont even be in their current residence for 3 more years so having a pico to tote along for the change isn't part of the short term plan, many are ok with reefs that last a year or so and then can be absorbed into larger more permanent setups.
The magic timeframe for gallon reefs is between 12-18 mos. any longer than that, and standard methods for tank care will fail and produce dead corals or complete algal dominance.
The magic timeframe for a 3 gallon tank is between 12-36 months for standard methods, the triple gallonage working in favor to allow up to what el fab demonstrated. Food for thought. Most people wont even be in their current residence for 3 more years so having a pico to tote along for the change isn't part of the short term plan, many are ok with reefs that last a year or so and then can be absorbed into larger more permanent setups.
Wingity
New member
Brandon an other contributors, I greatly appreciate the help, feel free to post all you want, with any opinions.
I reread this:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#2
After talking to you it makes more sense to me. I am thinking maybe a 30% water change every week or two? I don't mind doing more, if testing indicates a need. For know, I am doing small water changes every day in the hopes that bacteria colonies will grow but the critters won't die.
So far the critters are still alive and moving about. Haven't seen the mini star since the last water change, when the sand got stirred up. Their are chiton in there, and a bristle worm. Sorry, this stuff fascinates me.
I reread this:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#2
After talking to you it makes more sense to me. I am thinking maybe a 30% water change every week or two? I don't mind doing more, if testing indicates a need. For know, I am doing small water changes every day in the hopes that bacteria colonies will grow but the critters won't die.
So far the critters are still alive and moving about. Haven't seen the mini star since the last water change, when the sand got stirred up. Their are chiton in there, and a bristle worm. Sorry, this stuff fascinates me.
brandon429
Active member
Excellent link! always fact check what is being told in online posts. I love the discussion
Randy's article is great, I have linked it and read it for years but Ill add this challenge--it is not meant for pico reefing, nothing formal has ever been written about water changes in them, lots of guessing has been written about water changes in pico reefs, so large tanks sink and store nutrients at different rates than small tanks using a large tanks bioloading (relative to volume). consider this when using test kits to tell you when and how much to change...how accurate are our reefing test kits?
Run three different ammonia tests on your tank and post up the results w pics. Same for nitrate and phosphate.
Hanna P04 checkers are known accurate, and, in the chemistry thread we are talking about how a bad batch of reagent went out that will show zero, when in fact there could be much. You can see there isn't much line to ride for variances with small tanks...
detritus removal is different in smaller tanks vs larger ones that tend to have better capture machinery. picos tend to store, and you can only remove so much detritus with a 30% change.
You could even go most of the first year without doing any water changes, and your tank might be ok, lots of people under do them. The aggressive water changes are part of the strategy to get long term life.
Since no formal work exists on pico reefs (pico reef books are a collection of pics, they still dont meet the 24 month test mark etc) its all a guessing game. The majority fail, thats documented online. to be different and have better chances, i recommend having a different approach and it all starts with how you view water changes and initial algae loading as the critical factors that will decide your tanks health.
there are better ways to run a pico reef that have not been found yet, its always possible to discover new ground with the right planning.
Randy's article is great, I have linked it and read it for years but Ill add this challenge--it is not meant for pico reefing, nothing formal has ever been written about water changes in them, lots of guessing has been written about water changes in pico reefs, so large tanks sink and store nutrients at different rates than small tanks using a large tanks bioloading (relative to volume). consider this when using test kits to tell you when and how much to change...how accurate are our reefing test kits?
Run three different ammonia tests on your tank and post up the results w pics. Same for nitrate and phosphate.
Hanna P04 checkers are known accurate, and, in the chemistry thread we are talking about how a bad batch of reagent went out that will show zero, when in fact there could be much. You can see there isn't much line to ride for variances with small tanks...
detritus removal is different in smaller tanks vs larger ones that tend to have better capture machinery. picos tend to store, and you can only remove so much detritus with a 30% change.
You could even go most of the first year without doing any water changes, and your tank might be ok, lots of people under do them. The aggressive water changes are part of the strategy to get long term life.
Since no formal work exists on pico reefs (pico reef books are a collection of pics, they still dont meet the 24 month test mark etc) its all a guessing game. The majority fail, thats documented online. to be different and have better chances, i recommend having a different approach and it all starts with how you view water changes and initial algae loading as the critical factors that will decide your tanks health.
there are better ways to run a pico reef that have not been found yet, its always possible to discover new ground with the right planning.
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Wingity
New member
How so?
Tests, numbers and pics to follow. Got a salifert nitrate test kit but still going to use the API for everything else.
Wingity
New member
Do I really NEED to test for ammonia, at this point? I was using free samples of those little test strips, not really in a hurry to run out and spend more money, considering that the life in there and nitrate levels seem to indicate no ammonia would be present... if it is possible, I will definitely test for it before adding anything else, but why right now? The guy at the good LFS store told me if I have to choose where to spend the money, to spend it on testing nitrate and salinity.
Here is a pic of some of the mushrooms. Do they look healthy to you? They do to me, but what do I know. I thought there were 4, but found another tiny one hiding behind this rock. What we believe to be a spaghetti or hairy worm is also in the pic.
Here is a pic of some of the mushrooms. Do they look healthy to you? They do to me, but what do I know. I thought there were 4, but found another tiny one hiding behind this rock. What we believe to be a spaghetti or hairy worm is also in the pic.
brandon429
Active member
agreed/ nice coralline rock=time it takes to have bacteria settled before the coralline was.
corals not withered to a mush mess means no ammonia, Id trust that pic over any test kit at all. the only way you could be getting ammonia is 1. from sourcewater which is rare 2. huge piles of organic waste in the sandbed or under rocks, too new of a tank 3. a dead fish or animal, none yet.
I call no ammonia. i personally will never own an ammonia test kit for any reef tank I have. the rocks will be set up in such a way that no fish can die and hide in them lol, my sourcewater being distilled water is good, and im a clean freak lol.
I wrote about possibly getting by a year on little to no water changes because threads exist for that online that can be found, I chatted on lots of them and they are now dead
corals not withered to a mush mess means no ammonia, Id trust that pic over any test kit at all. the only way you could be getting ammonia is 1. from sourcewater which is rare 2. huge piles of organic waste in the sandbed or under rocks, too new of a tank 3. a dead fish or animal, none yet.
I call no ammonia. i personally will never own an ammonia test kit for any reef tank I have. the rocks will be set up in such a way that no fish can die and hide in them lol, my sourcewater being distilled water is good, and im a clean freak lol.
I wrote about possibly getting by a year on little to no water changes because threads exist for that online that can be found, I chatted on lots of them and they are now dead
