4 of 6 Angel's dead in qt in 5 days.

[SteelMastiff]

Thank heaven's I quarantine religiously, or else I would be suffering catastrophic loses in my DT at this point. I received 6 dwarf angelfish last Tuesday, and as of yesterday morning only 2 remain.

It would appear Velvet to be the cause, and I can only speculate, but my assumption is that the wholesaler runs low levels of copper thus masking it until they reached my quarantine systems; which are fully cycled, and medication free...

I wish I could have caught it sooner, but they weren't exhibiting any outward signs until it was too late. The remaining 2 are now in copper, and hopefully pull through...

Bottom line this sucks! And to top it off, my Venustus angel in my DT decided to jump on top of my overflow box cover this weekend and perished. How or why it couldn't manage to free itself is beyond me. The cover is only 5 inches wide and sits 1/4" above the water line. I have a canopy, so no way of escaping, unless of course you decide to beach yourself on my overflow cover...:headwally:

 

[ca1ore]

And to top it off, my Venustus angel in my DT decided to jump on top of my overflow box cover this weekend and perished. How or why it couldn't manage to free itself is beyond me. The cover is only 5 inches wide and sits 1/4" above the water line. I have a canopy, so no way of escaping, unless of course you decide to beach yourself on my overflow cover...:headwally:

Well, if it's any consolation, and it probably isn't, I have had fish 'beach' themselves on the overflow cover as well. Too bad it happened to be a Venustus though; they're had enough to get to survive without that.

 

[HumbleFish]

Sorry to hear about your terrible luck as of late. Ya know what they say, when it rains it pours. :headwallblue:

If the angels in copper start looking bad, you can do formalin baths to provide temp relief for velvet.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Thanks for the kind words guys, as we all know its never a fun situation, and losing my Venustus on top of it really stings...

I do have formalin if need be, I'm hoping the remaining are still hanging in there, I'll find out when I get home after work...

 

[Dmorty217]

Sorry about your losses, this hits real close to home with me since I lost 6 angels in QT about 40 days ago but that was caused by me and lack of a ammonia badge. Hate losing fish to stupid things like the beaching you were speaking of

 

[pktech]

Jeez Steele,
I'm sorry as well. Who did you lose & was the cb scribbled among the dead?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Are you sure it was velvet?

Did they show powdery condition on the outside?

Could also be a virulent bacterial infection.

Also, cycling is not a discrete concept. After a cycle, one still has to consider whether there are enough bacteria at the time of added new bioload. A cycle can be too weak or too distant in time.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Sorry about your losses, this hits real close to home with me since I lost 6 angels in QT abouttreatmentdays ago but that was caused by me and lack of a ammonia badge. Hate losing fish to stupid things like the beaching you were speaking of

Sorry to hear about your loss, this hobby has its humbling moments for sure.

Jeez Steele,
I'm sorry as well. Who did you lose & was the cb scribbled among the dead?

I am reaching the end of my stocking capacity for my DT, and I am playing around with trying to pair up some dwarf angels. All of the fish that were lost I received last Tuesday. It was 2 flame, 2 coral beauty, and 2 eibli.

The tb scribbled, and tb annularis juveniles are doing well. The scribbled battled a nasty case of ich, a secondary infection, and unfortunately suffered some scaring. How it will effect its appearance as it matures is unknown, but its got a ton of personality and character.

Are you sure it was velvet?

Did they show powdery condition on the outside?

Could also be a virulent bacterial infection.

Also, cycling is not a discrete concept. After a cycle, one still has to consider whether there are enough bacteria at the time of added new bioload. A cycle can be too weak or too distant in time.

With the exception of the largest eibli showing what appeared to be a very small patch of discoloration, no other external signs were obvious, just respiratory distress. Can I say with absolute certainty that it was velvet, no, but as fast as these fish perished I am left to believe it was...

I had these fish, one of each, in separate 40 gallon breeders. Both tanks have been cycled for months, and were used previously for observation periods after fish had been through my normal qt protocol. Both tanks have not only ammonia alert badges, but I also tested tested them prior to and after/during adding these fish.

I lost 2 fish in each of these tanks, only a coral beauty and eibli remain. I have them both in the same tank for copper treatment, and as of this morning they were both still kicking.

 

[wooden_reefer]

May be your losses were due to poor transport. Often such grief is not the fault of the aquarist.

"Both tanks have been cycled for months"

How have you been keeping nitrification robust and vigorous during these months? During this period, have the bacteria been maintaining at least the same bioload as all your new fish are expected to be?

I always try to get all the fish for a setup at once and then QT all at once.

To do so, the number of active nitification bacteria must be very high. I always make sure that the bacteria can process 10-20 times the ammonia expected to be generated by the new livestock. If I have doubt, I will add a strong pulse of ammona in a once cycled medium a few weeks in advance to be sure.

Ich and velvet generally show sign before they kill, IME.

It could also be an acute bacterial infection. The UV sometimes helps thru not always, but I always have UV properly set up when I QT. Even 50% reduction in chance is very valuable.

 

[SteelMastiff]

May be your losses were due to poor transport. Often such grief is not the fault of the aquarist.

"Both tanks have been cycled for months"

How have you been keeping nitrification robust and vigorous during these months? During this period, have the bacteria been maintaining at least the same bioload as all your new fish are expected to be?

I always try to get all the fish for a setup at once and then QT all at once.

To do so, the number of active nitification bacteria must be very high. I always make sure that the bacteria can process 10-20 times the ammonia expected to be generated by the new livestock. If I have doubt, I will add a strong pulse of ammona in a once cycled medium a few weeks in advance to be sure.

Ich and velvet generally show sign before they kill, IME.

It could also be an acute bacterial infection. The UV sometimes helps thru not always, but I always have UV properly set up when I QT. Even 50% reduction in chance is very valuable.

I really appreciate your comments and desire to shed light on what might have transpired, I truly feel it's always best to have more than one perspective. But I can say with absolute certainty that both of the 40 gallon breeders which housed these angels were more than up to the task with regards to handling the bio load. I received these fish on Tuesday, and the first casualty in tank #1 took place on Thursday, two more in tank #2 on Friday, and Saturday morning another in tank #1.

I should add that when I lost the first one I wasn't all that concerned, it just happens some times, but when I awoke on Friday to discover two more deceased I knew I had a problem. Tank #1 also contains two Butterflies which I had received two weeks prior to the Angels.

I not unlike you qt in waves, and this being the last planned group of fish I intended on purchasing for the foreseeable future, I decided to utilize two of the three larger qt tanks I have been using for observation periods after my fish have gone through TT, Prazi, and any other meds that might be required. I figured I would be breaking these tanks down anyway, so why not. Neither one of these tanks has been void of fish for more than a week in the last four months. Plan was to get them eating and comfy in these tanks before starting TT, which I do in 20 gallon tanks. I should mention, that I also add Bio Spira ( I know, snake oil ) after every water change in these tanks, some might feel it's a waste, but it works for me.

The two remaining Angels and Butterflies are all in tank #1 at this time, and are in a therapeutic level of copper. All of them with exception of the Eibli are eating well, the Eibli is active, but has only been picking at food"¦

 

[SteelMastiff]

Vibrio, any chance it could kill before showing external signs? I am seeing physical signs tonight on the Eibli that are concerning to say the least...

 

[SteelMastiff]

Perhaps a reaction to copper? Normally would ramp it up slowly, but in this case over two days.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Quick video, you can see it best at the 45 second mark, just behind the pectoral fin...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9YFcbT_4Us&list=UUBwYphDrbiIfiDBCJErp__g


.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Meds on hand.

Furan-2
Kanaplex
Triple Sulfa
Metronidazole
Para Guard
Maracyn Plus
Parinox

I have used Metronidazole, Furan-2, and Kanaplex combined before when I wasn't certain exactly what I was dealing with. Not certain what would be best to start with if this is indeed Vibrio.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Meds on hand.

Furan-2
Kanaplex
Triple Sulfa
Metronidazole
Para Guard
Maracyn Plus
Parinox

I have used Metronidazole, Furan-2, and Kanaplex combined before when I wasn't certain exactly what I was dealing with. Not certain what would be best to start with if this is indeed Vibrio.

In response to your PM, my procedure against external bacterial infection (as opposed to the internal wasting away type like fish TB) are as follows:

1. A properly set up UV (rather slow flow) in a Qt, that does not have needed drug that UV degrades, is the first major defense, 70-80% effective.

2. When the UV fails, next in line is antibiotic treatment. This have some impact on nitrification bacteria. UV must be shut off then.

Sometimes I will remove my cycled medium and do WC as I use antibiotics. I then safeguard my cycled medium for use at once after antibiotic treatment.

The good news vs ich is that antibiotic treatment, win or lose, lasts only about one week. The suffering of wc on all will be just for one week.

Or, when I have spare well-cycled medium, I will allow the antibiotics to harm the bacteria on it. If the medium has 20 times the needed bacteria for the bioload in QT, even a 95% reduction in nitrification due to the drug will still help me to reduce or eliminate WC. It is true that many antiboitics (not all) will not completely stop nitrification, only very seriously depresses it. (and once the drug is gone the bacteria come back)

The advantages of having very robustly cycled medium are really many. I always robustly cycled medium before QT of fish. When I cycle with the fishless method with artificial ammonia, the cycle can be very robust. The resulting cycled medium can handle more than 20 or more times the bioload in QT easily. Living on the margin in terms of ammonia processing is very foolish.

 

[hedgedrew]

That combo of furan kanna and metro is a very good combo. Period!!!

 

[SteelMastiff]

In response to your PM, my procedure against external bacterial infection (as opposed to the internal wasting away type like fish TB) are as follows:

1. A properly set up UV (rather slow flow) in a Qt, that does not have needed drug that UV degrades, is the first major defense, 70-80% effective.

2. When the UV fails, next in line is antibiotic treatment. This have some impact on nitrification bacteria. UV must be shut off then.

Sometimes I will remove my cycled medium and do WC as I use antibiotics. I then safeguard my cycled medium for use at once after antibiotic treatment.

The good news vs ich is that antibiotic treatment, win or lose, lasts only about one week. The suffering of wc on all will be just for one week.

Or, when I have spare well-cycled medium, I will allow the antibiotics to harm the bacteria on it. If the medium has 20 times the needed bacteria for the bioload in QT, even a 95% reduction in nitrification due to the drug will still help me to reduce or eliminate WC. It is true that many antiboitics (not all) will not completely stop nitrification, only very seriously depresses it. (and once the drug is gone the bacteria come back)

The advantages of having very robustly cycled medium are really many. I always robustly cycled medium before QT of fish. When I cycle with the fishless method with artificial ammonia, the cycle can be very robust. The resulting cycled medium can handle more than 20 or more times the bioload in QT easily. Living on the margin in terms of ammonia processing is very foolish.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and procedures, and fully agree that chasing ammonia in a non cycled tank is never fun, and very stressful to the inhabitants as well.

I do have UV on this tank, but its really of not much value at 9 watts, considering the flow rate isn't adjustable. Its a large canister filter with built in UV, and I want to say it flows 500 gph, but it does allow for a substantial amount of media.

 

[SteelMastiff]

That combo of furan kanna and metro is a very good combo. Period!!!

It has worked in the past, I dosed furan and triple sulfa last night, and will see how that goes. They are still hanging in there as of this evening. I'm still not 100% certain what I'm dealing with, that's the part I hate...

 

[hedgedrew]

Ya. Have you done formalin dips yet also?

 

[hedgedrew]

I think uv breaks down lot of these antibiotics.