$600 Per Polyp?!?!?

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128774#post8128774 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
I compleatly dissagree with you, lets stick with corals for my analogies.

Anyone that has or works in a LFS can tell you, they sell Xenia all day long. You say it is easyer to sell 10 $600 polyps I think anyone reading this will disagree. Not everyone has $600 to spend on one frag. On the contrary most of the people in the reef hobby can spend $40 on a more common frag.

Another example, any nursery man can tell you they make more money selling 1,000 2,000 annual impatients at a time, than one rare plant to a collector once in a blue moon.
-Jc

I like how you say to stick with corals for your analogies, yet you proceed to talk about a nursery. You logic is absent; if you have the resources to raise 1000-2000 zoa frags then maybe high volume would be the way to go, but i don't think that is true, so you have decided to make the most you can from this one morph that is rare in the us (common in japan).

and I am discussing you, the supply side, on which it is easier to get ten of something than 1000. No matter how long you try to jusitfy your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"


if one wants to work less, they should try for the highest margins on the products they sell, and thus they need to sell fewer of them, which is what you have done.

 

[Juan-Carlos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128864#post8128864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mayor10
Just because I registered on this site 6 months ago doesn't mean I don't understand the differences and rarity of various morphs.

And you're right, the big difference here is my mentality versus the mentality of a "collector". To each their own.

I still contend that, what I see as, extreme pricing on some corals is ratcheting up prices on other, more common corals. And I see it as hurting the hobby in making it less and less accessible to those without large budgets.

I apologize for assuming you hadn't given any away.

It's true maybe you having registered a couple months ago has nothing to do with it, the only reason I brought it up is because the vast majority of collectors and "Morph junkies" are on RC you really don't hear much of morphs and rare corals in LFS.

However, I still fail to see why you stick to the notion that rare frag prices are screwing up LFS's common coral prices, when you just told me you got a RPE colony for $10. I just see it as contradicting.
RPE's when they first started popping up, where going for $30-$40 per polyp. I'm willing to bet most LFS didn't even hear the name RPE's or know what they where valued at until recently since most of them do not follow online threads etc etc . Yet you said he knew exactly what he had. And even so you got them for $10 a colony.

I just can't see where rare morph prices have affected LFS prices. I have been in this hobby for years, and I have not seen much change. Sure corals in general have gone up in price, but mostly due to shipping prices and gas surcharges.

Even so, I see corals at affordable prices all around town.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

 

[Juan-Carlos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128936#post8128936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
I like how you say to stick with corals for your analogies, yet you proceed to talk about a nursery. You logic is absent; if you have the resources to raise 1000-2000 zoa frags then maybe high volume would be the way to go, but i don't think that is true, so you have decided to make the most you can from this one morph that is rare in the us (common in japan).

and I am discussing you, the supply side, on which it is easier to get ten of something than 1000. No matter how long you try to jusitfy your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"


if one wants to work less, they should try for the highest margins on the products they sell, and thus they need to sell fewer of them, which is what you have done.

HTwon8,

Okay, so I threw in a non-reef related analogy to try and help you understand. I apologize if it caused you any mental anguish. It doesn't change the fact of what I am saying.

And no, I feel, like you said; Your logic is absent.

It is not the fact of growing 1,000 or 2,000 zoa's most reefers out there have over that amount in their tanks. One small colony can have a couple hundred polyps. We are not talking about selling common zoa's in single polyp frags. Who would spend $45 on over night shipping to buy a $1.00 single polyp common zoa frag? No one.

Common zoa's are common for a reason they grow fast, I can't see how you would think a slow growing paly like the 'Envy Oranges' can produce more than say any other common orange Zoanthid.

How many people do you know that have or are going to buy a polyp of 'Envy Oranges'? Probably none. The collectors that are willing to spend the money on an 'Envy Orange' polyp are far and in between. Yet how many people do you know have any other orange zoa, or want to buy an orange zoa? Every reefer that likes zoanthids, will own orange zoanthids at one point.

On the supply side, as you mention it is not easier to get "10" 'Envy oranges' because as you might know already, they grow very slow. We are not talking about Prada hand bags here that you could buy from the manufacturer. These are living animals that grow at different rates. Therefor a fast growing $5 bam bam orange that sells quickly will ALWAYS be more profitable than a SLOW growing $600 'Envy orange' that sells once in a blue moon.

While you might think it is easier to profit on rare corals I can guarantee you it is not. Obviously you have never dealt with the commercial aspect of this hobby.

No matter how long you try to justify your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"

Bottom line, 'Envy Oranges' are expensive, Yes they are. We have established that right?? Good!
I am not trying to justify it, they are what they are, I am just trying to help you guys understand why. It IS under my control true, They where not always so expensive. But now they are.
I really wish I could sell them cheaper, in the past I have, but not now.

And Honestly, I really could care less if you personally twon8 agree with what I have to say, or if you belive what I say. I have seen your post all over RC, and it seems like all you do is complain and flame and argue on all types of topics.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

 

[twon8]

i am an economist with a degree, so my understanding of markets and price points surpasses yours in leaps and bounds.



thanks for the personal attack at the end. i like that, shows your true colors; i would say more, but i don't attack and flame others.

bottom line, orange envy's are expensive because you choose them to be expensive. no other reason.

 

[RevHtree]

Hey JC could you post a pic of the OE's right next to the RPE's and take a pic? Not the brown ones. The true RPE next to the OE. While you are here I would love to see that. Some people say they are the same, some say different, but we have yet to see some side by side pics of each morph in the same tank, same lighting, same camera and settings.

Oh also if you would like me to document this process plese send me a OE polyp and I will do so at no charge to you. PM me for my addy. heck I'll even pay shipping.

 

[Juan-Carlos]

i am an economist with a degree, so my understanding of markets and price points surpasses yours in leaps and bounds.
thanks for the personal attack at the end. i like that, shows your true colors; i would say more, but i don't attack and flame others.
bottom line, orange envy's are expensive because you choose them to be expensive. no other reason.

Twon8,

I guess My useing a non reef related anology did cause you mental anguish and I apologize once more. The nice thing about forums in general is you could be whatever you'd like to be. Like me for example, I am the president of Tahiti.

Thats fine if you have knowledge on the economy and how it works, good for you! If you have such a firm grasp of economic principals, then I ask you what happens when the supply of an item is far out weighed by the demand? What happens to price? You just can't apply everything you read in a book about economy in general to this hobby, it does not work the same.

We are talking about animals that grow at diffrent rates. So yes, when in general higher priced items make more of a profit, such is not the same in reefing and especially when we are specifically talking about a single morph with growth rates way below average of the standard.

That was not a personal attack, only an observation, I have over time seen many posts of yours that are bitter to the eyes.
I've been in this hobby and on RC for years, I can guarantee you people know how I am. If you feel I am an evil un-Godly person, well I can tell you I am not. I have nothing what so ever against you, first because I don't know you, and second because it's not my style. You could be and probably are a great person. I'm not judgeing you, so don't judge me.

Yes you are right, They are expensive, and yes I did choose to. But not with out grounds, I know what I have, I know they are Rare.
I don't force anyone to buy them. Obviously you are not a true Zoanthid colector and therfor will not understand. And I don't force you to like them. There are many rare coral I don't particularly like, and many more I do like.

Yet you have been talking about whether or not highly priced rarities are ethical. I think stamp and coin collecting is retarted, but that is not my thing. I think spending $400,000.00 on a car is a compleat waste. It depends on who you are asking and most will tell you to each their own.

"Don't be mad at BMW for not charging like KIA. You get what you pay for"

Kindest Regards,


-Jc

 

[RevHtree]

JC did you see my post?

 

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129772#post8129772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Twon8,

I guess My useing a non reef related anology did cause you mental anguish and I apologize once more. The nice thing about forums in general is you could be whatever you'd like to be. Like me for example, I am the president of Tahiti.

Thats fine if you have knowledge on the economy and how it works, good for you! You just can't apply everything you read in a book about economy in general to this hobby, it does not work the same.

We are talking about animals that grow at diffrent rates. So yes, when in general higher priced items make more of a profit, such is not the same in reefing and especially when we are specifically talking about a single morph with growth rates way below average of the standard.

That was not a personal attack, only an observation, I have over time seen many posts of yours that are bitter to the eyes.
I've been in this hobby and on RC for years, I can guarantee you people know how I am. If you feel I am an evil un-Godly person, well I can tell you I am not. I have nothing what so ever against you, first because I don't know you, and second because it's not my style. You could be and probably are a great person. I'm not judgeing you, so don't judge me.

Yes you are right, They are expensive, and yes I did choose to. But not with out grounds, I know what I have, I know they are Rare.
I don't force anyone to buy them. Obviously you are not a true Zoanthid colector and therfor will not understand. And I don't force you to like them. There are many rare coral I don't particularly like, and many more I do like.

Yet you have been talking about whether or not highly priced rarities are ethical. I think stamp and coin collecting is retarted, but that is not my thing. I think spending $400,000.00 on a car is a compleat waste. It depends on who you are asking and most will tell you to each their own.

"Don't be mad at BMW for not charging like KIA. You get what you pay for"

Kindest Regards,


-Jc

wow, way to ramble on without a point;
perhaps some more work with the english language might help you be a bit more succinct and understand my points a bit better, which obviously have slipped by you. at no point have you ever or could you ever cause me mental anguish; and being the gentleman i am, i will step away now, this isn't worth the time or energy.

in closing, something i typed above that you obviously did not notice.


you choose to list your zoas at a high price, that;s fine, capitalism pure and simple; but don't try to say you wish you could offer them at low prices; we're not stupid, a 600 dollar margin allows one to not work nearly as much for the same money.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Alright JC, what did you pay for the original colony of these palys?

 

[Juan-Carlos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129723#post8129723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RevHtree
Hey JC could you post a pic of the OE's right next to the RPE's and take a pic? Not the brown ones. The true RPE next to the OE. While you are here I would love to see that. Some people say they are the same, some say different, but we have yet to see some side by side pics of each morph in the same tank, same lighting, same camera and settings.

Oh also if you would like me to document this process plese send me a OE polyp and I will do so at no charge to you. PM me for my addy. heck I'll even pay shipping.

Hey Buddy!

I'll try and snap some pictures for you when I get a chance. They are not the same I can assure you, there are a few diffrent RPE morphs out there that I have had. They in no way resemble RPE's The pics of the RPE and the Envy Orange with OUT flash are in same tank same lighting and same cam.


LOL I've sent frags to people in the past, no one can get them to grow faster.

I'll try and get you the pics soon buddy!!

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

 

[Juan-Carlos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129872#post8129872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
wow, way to ramble on without a point;
perhaps some more work with the english language might help you be a bit more succinct and understand my points a bit better, which obviously have slipped by you. at no point have you ever or could you ever cause me mental anguish; and being the gentleman i am, i will step away now, this isn't worth the time or energy.

in closing, something i typed above that you obviously did not notice.


you choose to list your zoas at a high price, that;s fine, capitalism pure and simple; but don't try to say you wish you could offer them at low prices; we're not stupid, a 600 dollar margin allows one to not work nearly as much for the same money.

You see, there you go with personal attacks. Yet "You don't attack" right?? Or so you said. Actually you might be needing more work on the English language, as you fail to capitalize the letter "I" or the beginning of your sentences. The mental anguish bit was clearly a joke, I think everyone got it.

And in reply to you're closing, although I have explained it to you already and you still fail to understand.

Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price. Call it as you wish, you are entitled to your opinion. There is a reason why ReefEnvy has it's name, all this time you have spoken from feelings of envy obviously. Just because you can't afford it does not make it wrong or un-ethical. Why do you speak in behalf of the community,
You should not discredit my words, as you only speak for yourself.
Many will tell you, that when I say I wish I could, I mean it. Many did not pay $600 per polyp, and many got them for free. Just because my supply is so limited and the demand is so high Mr. economist, does not discredit what I said. If I had more of them they would, like before, be much cheaper!

And yes, I appreciate you being the bigger man and avoiding all my questions in the previous reply. Bring up the dignity card, like that people forget you didn't answer my questions.

This is just a silly online debate, yet you are getting all defensive over my questions, when I have answered all of yours MORE than once!

Again sir: Kindest Regards,

-Jc

 

[Juan-Carlos]

Peter, I am embarrassed to say, lets say I'd have a lot of ticked off friends that didn't get gifts for the holidays the year I got them LOL!!:lol:


Take care,

-Jc

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130213#post8130213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Peter, I am embarrassed to say, lets say I'd have a lot of ticked off friends that didn't get gifts for the holidays the year I got them LOL!!:lol:


Take care,

-Jc

I figured. That would be a big part of why people are getting on you. I'm going to take a guess that selling one polyp gave you a profit of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 times what you paid for how ever many polps you got in the first place. You're running a business, it's pretty clear what you're doing isn't for the love of the hobby, you see a way to make some money. There isn't anything wrong with that in general, but lets call a spade a spade here.

You're not a collector, you're a broker. When you aquire some rare specimen it's because you see dollar signs attached to some frags off of it. Most serious collectors in any hobby buy things because they want to have that item and keep it. You're like the wealthy guy that gets on the list for a limited car so he can turn around and sell it for more than he paid. I have a problem with people that do that and I have a problem with what you're doing. If in fact your prices on other stuff was "reasonable" I might be willing to not give you grief about your $600 polyp.

You're not helping the hobby, you're part of what's wrong with the hobby. If I met you I might like you as a person. Even knowing what you're doing I certainly don't wish you any ill will, I will be selling and trading frags in the future. But don't come on here pretending what you're doing is anything but big profit.

Regards,
Peter

Edit: Maybe I read your post wrong, are you claiming you paid a lot of money for your original colony?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130042#post8130042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
LOL I've sent frags to people in the past, no one can get them to grow faster.

Now that would make an interesting thread. I'd love to read about the various things people have tried when growing OE. Heh, I wanted the Maximus ones just so I could give it a shot Wonder who got those...

 

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130166#post8130166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
You see, there you go with personal attacks. Yet "You don't attack" right?? Or so you said. Actually you might be needing more work on the English language, as you fail to capitalize the letter "I" or the beginning of your sentences. The mental anguish bit was clearly a joke, I think everyone got it.

And in reply to you're closing, although I have explained it to you already and you still fail to understand.

Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price. Call it as you wish, you are entitled to your opinion. There is a reason why ReefEnvy has it's name, all this time you have spoken from feelings of envy obviously. Just because you can't afford it does not make it wrong or un-ethical. Why do you speak in behalf of the community,
You should not discredit my words, as you only speak for yourself.
Many will tell you, that when I say I wish I could, I mean it. Many did not pay $600 per polyp, and many got them for free. Just because my supply is so limited and the demand is so high Mr. economist, does not discredit what I said. If I had more of them they would, like before, be much cheaper!

And yes, I appreciate you being the bigger man and avoiding all my questions in the previous reply. Bring up the dignity card, like that people forget you didn't answer my questions.

This is just a silly online debate, yet you are getting all defensive over my questions, when I have answered all of yours MORE than once!

Again sir: Kindest Regards,

-Jc

show me where i said it was unethical?

and you basically just agreed with what i said,
"Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price."

that was my only point, goodbye

and i choose not to capitalize, both in text and zoas prices.

 

[Reef Junkie]

JC,

Come on, anyone that sells corals at insanely high prices is not a friend to the hobby. This website is a friend to this hobby, that's why it was created. Examples of people selling corals at $400-$600-$1000 is just pure examples of more people that do not care for anything but their own gain.

Case and point. I have probably one of the rarest corals in captivity. It is unidentified and priceless. It grows so slow that now well over a decade it has only grown about 10".
If I wanted to, I could hype it up and sell it for $1,000 per square inch.

I have never offered this coral for sale and never will. Only one other person has this coral and that's because I gave it to him.

I consider myself a friend to this hobby.
If I had a rare corals such as yours, I would not sell it. I would rather give it to my closest friends and pray we all keep it alive.

That is why people are slightly passionate about your pricing. It has nothing to do with being able to afford it. $600 is chump change and only appeals to the impulsive.

I am a collector and would never pay that much for one polyp of any coral.

I don't agree with your assessment of twon. He has a no nonsense approach to posting and is pretty fair.

This isn't another attack on you JC, but I don't agree with what you're doing. It's shameful.

You can argue that it's up to people to decide whether or not to buy, but you can save that for the websites that don't care about your rediculous prices. This website is not that place, members here do care.

I do hope that you change your mind about your pricing, but don't be surprised that very few people will ever agree with you here until that happens.

Peace

 

[Juan-Carlos]

I figured. That would be a big part of why people are getting on you. I'm going to take a guess that selling one polyp gave you a profit of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 times what you paid for how ever many polps you got in the first place. You're running a business, it's pretty clear what you're doing isn't for the love of the hobby, you see a way to make some money. There isn't anything wrong with that in general, but lets call a spade a spade here.

You're not a collector, you're a broker. When you aquire some rare specimen it's because you see dollar signs attached to some frags off of it. Most serious collectors in any hobby buy things because they want to have that item and keep it. You're like the wealthy guy that gets on the list for a limited car so he can turn around and sell it for more than he paid. I have a problem with people that do that and I have a problem with what you're doing. If in fact your prices on other stuff was "reasonable" I might be willing to not give you grief about your $600 polyp.

You're not helping the hobby, you're part of what's wrong with the hobby. If I met you I might like you as a person. Even knowing what you're doing I certainly don't wish you any ill will, I will be selling and trading frags in the future. But don't come on here pretending what you're doing is anything but big profit.

Regards,
Peter

Edit: Maybe I read your post wrong, are you claiming you paid a lot of money for your original colony?

Peter,

Yes you read it wrong.

Thank God you posted that edit on the bottom LOL. I am a collector at heart. I have tons of other rare corals, you don't see me selling them. This is not a business, this is my hobby.

I paid much more than I would like to admit, profits wouldent that be nice. Reefenvy is a site to offer rare frags that are hard to find ealsewhere. It's just a way to offer some rarities, and help with tank costs. I hate when people think I go to wholesalers shop chop and sell. I don't!


Take care buddy,

-Jc

 

[sportsguy247]

If you dont like a price dont buy it. Period.

 

[Juan-Carlos]

There you go Sportsguy I agree with you, But for some reason people have to point fingers, start the name calling, and be imature about it.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

 

[Voltekker]

hey jc where in miami are you. Are you part of FMAS ? Just wondering do you have a storefront or somthing or do you do this from your home.