600gal (96x48x30)

[tomasz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729553#post6729553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
tomasz-in a drain situation, exactly how is water "sucked" faster than a pump can pump? I dont understand this concept at all. water isnt sucked out of a drain, it just flows through.

asnatias-

It is better to have the drain line full size and with no valves.
The valves not only restrict water flow, they restrict the natural flow of air that exists in drains. in a drain, not only is water flowing through, but there is also air, and that air cannot be trapped in certain areas of the drain line or else you can get nasty air and sucking sounds, and possible air lock in a worst case senario. If you put a valve on the drain and block it off slightly eliminating the air and restricting water flow, what you have is a syphon and you dont want a syphon to drain your tank.

Algae may not grow in the pipe, but you can have many other types of things growing in there. like tube worms (soft and hard) of different sizes, diatoms, and bacteria.

In this situation in which you want a drain to feed your skimmer (whish i donnot prefer btw) , you want to have a drain for the skimmer lower in the prefilter box, and two drains to the sump that are slightly higher in the skimmer box than the skimmer drain line.

as usual, words are hard to explain situations like this sometimes, so let me know if any of this makes no sense.

i am seeing some odd advice (some good too) going around in this thread regarding plumbing, be careful what you choose to do.

Starpolyp, it does make sens what you say, but what I'm saying is that I did trial and error for a month and this is what works best in my case. Believe it if I can find better solution I will do it in a heart beat. I'm not saying this is the best there is (absolutely not), but it works in my case. I think once we get to the1.5" and 2" drain we are dealing with different animals.
Am I wrong thinking that 2" or even1.5" durson can siphone more (faster) water then the pipe can pump? I think this was my problem when I tried it on my tank .

 

[jnarowe]

You guys are going round-and-round. I'll explain how mine is set up to give you some suggestions.

I have two 2" BHs draining from the bottom of an external overflow chamber, and a 1-1/2" BH for the skimmer also through the bottom of the oveflow. You can see pictures of it in my thread.

I have BVs on all drain lines BUT this is not to restrict the flow. They remain wide open at all times. The valves are a redundant method for closing off a line for maintainance if needed. In fact, if I was a little more thrifty, I could really just use plugs that I could screw into the BH to shut down the flow. That is a lot cheaper than a BV, but I got BVs with unions so I could remove the drain line if needed. There is no reason (IMO) to ever reduce the flow coming from the overflow with the already stated resulting problems. Once you reduce the overflow, you have created a much higher probabilty of a flood.

To control overflow volume, I use a "T" after the return pump and bleed off return volume back into the sump. It is rediculously simple and gives the reefer exact control over water flow without any danger of flooding or damaging a pump motor by scaling back its output and creating back pressure. The pump and overflow should operate UNRESTRICTED in any way IMO or you will really increase your chances of a serious problem.

I have the BV w/unions on my overflow merely to make maintainance of those lines easier, not to reduce flow. Putting serious thought into this can save you a heap of headaches later on.

 

[starpolyp]

"S absolutlynoottarpolyp" <---- what does that mean exactly?

"Am I wrong thinking that 2" or even1.5" durson can siphone more (faster) water then the pipe can pump?"

well, a 2" or even 1.5" drain can probably "drain" more water faster than a pump can provide (depending on the pump of course), but that is the point. thats is what you want, you donnot want to "match" the drain flow rate with the pump flow rate. that is a bad idea that can lead to disaster. I am interseted in exactly how your plumping is set up because it sounds as if you are sypnoning water into your sump rather than draining it. It may sound like a play on words but it isnt, draining and syphoning are two different concepts.
i have seen several disasters spawned by installations in which a valve was added to a drain line to eliminate noise from the drain.

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6726369#post6726369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tomasz
Shawn If you going to have one drain fot the skimmer and second 2" drain for the sump you will have to reduce the second drain by a lot. I have one 2" drain on my tank with dart pump and that drain is reduced in half by a ball valve. If I was you I woud take the 2" put a ball valve under the drain next split it with a T and put a ball valves on each end for flow adjustment. This is what I did on my tank and it works great. As of your emergency I would put one 2" hole higher then the first one. I would not go smaller then the 2".

I was thinking about adding a 1.5" drain that would be reduced down to 1" to feed the skimmer... I wanted to go with a 1.5" and reduce it down so that if I ever needed more flow from that drain in the future it would be simple to do... I always like to go bigger and reduce down incase I need more later... But I figured that if I used a 1" to feed the skimmer it would only feed it so much and anything "extra" would go down the main 2" drain...

Like I said I was looking at T'ing off the main 2" drain but I think if I had dedicated drains it would be better. Now that I think about a emergency drain, that is sounding better and better every min... So if I am going to drill one hole in the tank, might as well drill two...

 

[tomasz]

Jnarowe, what pump are you using on your system? How are you controlling the water level in your overflow?

 

[tomasz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729705#post6729705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
"S absolutlynoottarpolyp" <---- what does that mean exactly?

sp. didn't proof read until posted

 

[starpolyp]

i am wondering why you wont run a pump dedicated to feeding the skimmer at a known rate? yes, it may be a lil more money and yes it may add a lil bit more warmth to the tank and yes it may be alil bit more noisy, but you wont have to drill additonal holes into the tank and you will know that the skimmer is getting the proper amount of water. generally, skimmers should be fed by a pump from the sump and not drained into. I am not sure exactly what skimmer you are using. do they suggest a drain line feed?

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6727436#post6727436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
The rule of thumb with overflow drains is never to put ball valves on them. When you put ball valves on your drain lines, you are restricting the flow to the point where it matches the flow from your return pump. All it takes is one snail to go down the pipe and get stuck where the ball valve opening is and it will be enough extra restriction that the tank will start overflowing. It is necessary to put a valve on the skimmer line but I would never put one on regular drains. If any must put ball valves on a drain, they should have a backup drain installed without a ball valve that can handle all of the flow should one of the other drains get restricted. This is coming from someone who had a tank crash because my drain line got restricted, the tank overflowed, and all of the water was replaced with kalkwasser via the auto-top off.

Travis, when you say don't put a BV on a drain do you mean not at all, or just don't use them to restrict flow ?? I picked up a 2" True Union Ball Valve to place on my 2" drain but only planned on using it for maintenance so that I can shut off the drain and also have a "disconnect area" for that piece of 2" plumbing...

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6728110#post6728110 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NexDog
Why would it overflow? The return pump would pump all the water out the return section of your pump and shouldn't be enough to overflow a large tank. Just put a solenoid above the above bulkhead to shut off the return pump if the water level gets that far and you save the pump.

Every system is different but on my system the main reason to get the water to the sump is to get it to the skimmer. Sure there's a fuge down there and a grow-out section but all that is fine on around 800gph which the skimmer needs to function correctly.

NexDog, I though about that but I don't like that idea because if my drain is only slightly blocked causing the display to drain slower then when the solenoid is activated it would kill the pump but when the display drained enough it would kick the pump back on and it would keep doing this over and over causing alot of wear and tear on the pump and also I would trust a drain vs. a solenoid...

Now I might add a switch in the display tank so that if it does to "almost" overflowing levels that when the switch is activated it would kill the pump until manually restarted, even if the water slowly drain from the display...

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729553#post6729553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
asnatlas-

It is better to have the drain line full size and with no valves.
The valves not only restrict water flow, they restrict the natural flow of air that exists in drains. in a drain, not only is water flowing through, but there is also air, and that air cannot be trapped in certain areas of the drain line or else you can get nasty air and sucking sounds, and possible air lock in a worst case senario. If you put a valve on the drain and block it off slightly eliminating the air and restricting water flow, what you have is a syphon and you dont want a syphon to drain your tank.

Algae may not grow in the pipe, but you can have many other types of things growing in there. like tube worms (soft and hard) of different sizes, diatoms, and bacteria.

starpolyp, This is why I questioned adding another drain as I would not like to restrict my main 2" drain...

I understand what you are saying about a siphon but it wouldn't cause any problems because if you have a system setup correctly with a sump when the return pump is turned off the water that is in the display will flow into the overflow area then drain down to the sump via the durso... Hopefully most people have enough space in the sump for that extra volume that will overflow from the display (only a few gal if that, depending on size of the overflow area and durso height)... So if the drain did have suction it wouldn't drain any more water then what would have drained on its own with the return pump being shut off... Does this make since ??

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729553#post6729553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
In this situation in which you want a drain to feed your skimmer (which i donnot prefer btw) , you want to have a drain for the skimmer lower in the prefilter box, and two drains to the sump that are slightly higher in the skimmer box than the skimmer drain line.

as usual, words are hard to explain situations like this sometimes, so let me know if any of this makes no sense.

starpolyp, I am not quite sure if I follow you on this

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729703#post6729703 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
Putting serious thought into this can save you a heap of headaches later on.

That is what I am doing / trying to do... That is why I don't have water in the tank right now because as I sit here looking at the system I am thinking how I can do this or that better... Like I stated I am not in a hurry and I want it done right the first time...

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729737#post6729737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tomasz
Jnarowe, what pump are you using on your system? How are you controlling the water level in your overflow?

I believe jnarowe is using a single Seq Hammerhead to run his system...

 

[starpolyp]

Use a pump to feed your skimmer. not a drain line. that is the ideal set-up imo.

and dont put valves in the drain lines.

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729756#post6729756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
i am wondering why you wont run a pump dedicated to feeding the skimmer at a known rate? yes, it may be a lil more money and yes it may add a lil bit more warmth to the tank and yes it may be alil bit more noisy, but you wont have to drill additonal holes into the tank and you will know that the skimmer is getting the proper amount of water. generally, skimmers should be fed by a pump from the sump and not drained into. I am not sure exactly what skimmer you are using. do they suggest a drain line feed?

I want to add a dedicated drain line to the skimmer for all the reasons you listed above... I have a BK400 EXT... The inlet on the skimmer is 1" and around 600gph is what the skimmer should be fed at... I am looking at placing a 1.5" BH reduced down to a 1" drain to feed the skimmer and having a BV between the BH and skimmer so that if the skimmer is being fed to fast I would be able to adjust accordingly... I have read of quite a few BK owners feeding their EXT skimmers in this way and that is why I am looking into it myself...

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6729976#post6729976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starpolyp
dont put valves in the drain lines.

I think I might forgo placing the 2" True Union Ball Valve on my drain line...

 

[nickb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6730065#post6730065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asnatlas
I want to add a dedicated drain line to the skimmer for all the reasons you listed above... I have a BK400 EXT... The inlet on the skimmer is 1" and around 600gph is what the skimmer should be fed at... I am looking at placing a 1.5" BH reduced down to a 1" drain to feed the skimmer and having a BV between the BH and skimmer so that if the skimmer is being fed to fast I would be able to adjust accordingly...

I don't know BK skimmers but I assume that there must be a pump somewhere to pump water into the skimmer? If so, I can't see the benefit of a dedicated drain line connected to the skimmer pump. It would seem nearly impossible to adjust the BV to get perfect flow rates to match the skimmer pump. A bit to slow, and the pump will 'run out of water'. A bit too fast and the drain will fill up. It seems much simpler to connect the skimmer pump to the sump and not have this hassle to worry about.

 

[Travis]

Wow, this thread has really picked up speed.

tomasz
Let's say you take a 1.5" pipe... Then you measure how much flow you can drain through it, siphon through it, and force through it with a pump. The drain situation will be the lowest amount, the siphon in the middle, and the greatest amount that can be pushed through the pipe is with a pump. So you cannot drain or siphon water through the same size pipe faster than you can push water through it with a pump. This obviously depends on how large the pump is that you are using. I hope that helps to clear things up a little for you. I've read your posts but still am confused as to why you are needing a ball valve on your drain line.



starpolyp
I agree with you 100% about the stuff that can grow inside the pipe and on the valve. You can get bacteria and crustacean growth. It may not be that much but it will still cause the slightest amount of restriction as it grows on the surfaces. If a drain line is restricted with a ball valve, you are pretty much dialing the drain line in to flow the same rate as the return pump. So that little bit of growth inside that line will restrict just enough where it will start flowing less than the return pump and that is when the flood starts.
I do disagree with you on feeding the skimmer. There is no better way to feed a skimmer than via gravity from the overflow. This is for a few different reasons:
-No need for a feed pump, which is one more thing to maintain, adds more electrical consumption, adds heat, and only pumps sump water where the protiens have alread risen to the surface of the water.
-Feeding the skimmer directly from the overlflow allows the rawest form of protein laden water possible. Read through some of the skimmer threads in Anthony Calfo's forum and you will get an idea why this is so. Basically, as soon as overflow water goes into the sump, the proteins begin rising to the top again. Since a skimmer pump in the sump cannot suck right from the top, it is not getting the most protein laden water possible.

asnatlas

Travis, when you say don't put a BV on a drain do you mean not at all, or just don't use them to restrict flow ??

You are correct. I did not mean that you should not have a BV on a drain. You just shouldn't use it to restrict flow, unless you have a backup drain higher in your overflow that can handle all of the flow in case something happens. I do have ball valves on my drains but they are only for maintenance. For example, every Friday I turn off all of my drains except for one and tie a filter sock on that drain. Then I turkey baste my rocks and all the water that goes down the drain is forced through that filter sock. After a couple hours I take the filter sock off and open up the other drain lines.

 

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6730331#post6730331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nickb
I don't know BK skimmers but I assume that there must be a pump somewhere to pump water into the skimmer? If so, I can't see the benefit of a dedicated drain line connected to the skimmer pump. It would seem nearly impossible to adjust the BV to get perfect flow rates to match the skimmer pump. A bit to slow, and the pump will 'run out of water'. A bit too fast and the drain will fill up. It seems much simpler to connect the skimmer pump to the sump and not have this hassle to worry about.

Shawns's BK is a recirculating skimmer. The pump on that skimmer only takes water from directly inside the skimmer and recirculates it, just like a closed loop, it does not draw in water from the tank. The skimmer needs to be fed by another means. This can be either another pump or a gravity line from the overflow. This is the case with all external recirculating skimmers.

 

[asnatlas]

Travis Thanks for your replies...

nickb, here are a few pics...