A Few Thoughts on P.Eichler's List

[loosecannon]

Sorry for the spelling Hankthe tank , My last spelling test was the 5 grad. I brok the guys nose and he gave me an F. at the time I thout I one the disagrimint, now i`m not so shor? Port kent is in northern ny . big lake lots of trees few pepole. I came here from long island to raise my son . Hank thats agood Idea. I know that some fish in hawii can be keepet ther, but know were els. the fish don`t have to go so far.

 

[loosecannon]

So King ong who should know the needs of the fish , me who is shelling out 30$ bucks, or some 16 year old kid makeing 4.25 an hour. hum let me think let me think let me think , tuff call, tuff call!

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309811#post10309811 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
I agree Wayne and when I sell a Batfish the buyer is informed of 4 facts.#1 that the fish has the genetic potential to be the size of a trash can lid.#2 that fish do not grow to the size of the tank but to their genetic potential as modified by diet and water conditions.#3 that if a fish is not growing it is dying!The max size of fish is indeterminate within the frame of reference laid out by the first two facts.Healthy fish never stop growing until they die.#4 that when the fish is big nobody will want it including me.After all that is said the customer is free to do as they see fit.Do a lot of people buy the fish anyway?Yes.As far as morality goes that is something which by definition we must each choose for ourselves.The problem as I see it lies with people feeling entitled to impose their morality on others,by whatever means.

So Is it safe to assume you sell these batfish to people with multiple hundred gallon tanks in which they will keep the batfish with no reef fish since "they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef"? Give me a break about me imposing my morality on people, this isn't about morality, it's about informing people.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310329#post10310329 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?

The biggest part of the reason for this list is the sellers. If there were more responsible sellers and collectors out there this list would be pointless. Sorry, but the average LFS worker is a bigger part of the problem than the cure. But kudos to you for keeping people informed of their purchases

 

[hankthetank]

Uh Pete I did mention the words"trash can lid" right?When I'm asked directly"what size tank does this batfish need" my answer is always the same"olympic sized".And when the customer tells me that they have a 55,"but we're going to get a bigger tank"I should according to you say"well I will not sell you this fish until you have a bigger tank"You seem to want to relieve the buyer of all responsibility for doing what you consider irresponsible.But tell me what do you think about my air freight law?

 

[loosecannon]

pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I [profanity] on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

 

[hankthetank]

I must disagree with the statement that the sellers are the biggest problem.We are all responsible for maintaining a level of situational awareness of the world around us.I hold each person solely responsible for their level of awareness.Many people would rather figure out how the world is rather than be told how it is.They should have that opportunity.

 

[barbra]

What started out as a very stimulating philosophical discussion seems to be breaking down into microscopic nitpicks and some needless personal digs have been made. If Mr. Eichler is feeling that he has been attacked for attempting to provide a beneficial service I could certainly sympathize with those feelings.

It is as fruitless to debate an individual species' placement on the list as it is to try to convert someone to another religion. Nobody is going to come out ahead on that topic.

I would encourage you guys to steer back to the main point and discus the ethical reasons for/against the selling of delicate species in general. That was a much more beneficial discussion.

 

[hankthetank]

Oh Loosecannon,you have no need to apologize for anything AFAIK!

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310471#post10310471 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
So King ong who should know the needs of the fish , me who is shelling out 30$ bucks, or some 16 year old kid makeing 4.25 an hour. hum let me think let me think let me think , tuff call, tuff call!

Uhmm.. everyone should? That's why Eichler's list should be required reading.

I have never seen such a resistance to the spreading of information.. very odd. Almost like you're insulted that someone would call something difficult to have / avoid if not experienced. Very bizarre.

 

[hankthetank]

Barbra those "microscopic nitpicks"are the fundamental basics of a stimulating and important discussion in our hobby.The use of the Batfish was an example.The principle holds true for every other species on the list as well.So far and no doubt due to the diligent work of dc I have seen nothing besides a single incoherent ramble that has seriously derailed this discussion.If you or anyone has anything to offer please do not hesitate as this is just another example of how learning new stuff can be a difficult and painful process.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310329#post10310329 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
K-K read or reread my last post to Wayne.As the seller it is my responsibility to accurately describe the thing I am selling be it a bag of sand,a used car,or the rarest most beautiful most unkeepable fish there is.Then the choice is yours.Everything that is kept now that wasn't keepable when I started in the trade is kept because of people trying to do what everyone else knows is impossible.Most of the well respected names in this hobby started out by mistreating a carnival goldfish.But they learned.And kept learning.More than most of us here did.Shouldn't everyone have that opportunity?

Ok, and you know the requirements of the list, and are responsible to relay that information.

But now let's take (what has been in my experience) as the more typical LFS experience: an employee with limited knowledge, wanting to make a sale, and a consumer with limited knowledge hoping the seller of the product knows what is up.

In my example, if both users would have read Eichler's list, they would be in a better position to take things easy with certain species, and avoid them until they read up and learned more about the requirements in keeping them.

Why must every person in this hobby make the same mistakes that others have already made? Why do so at the risk of killing/destroying resources. If someone else has made a mistake, then others should learn from that mistake, and I feel that's what his list does.

 

[hankthetank]

To be honest when I was young and stupid I always looked at lists like that as a menu of goals to strive for.Oh that's right, I still think that way!

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310598#post10310598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
Uh Pete I did mention the words"trash can lid" right?When I'm asked directly"what size tank does this batfish need" my answer is always the same"olympic sized".And when the customer tells me that they have a 55,"but we're going to get a bigger tank"I should according to you say"well I will not sell you this fish until you have a bigger tank"You seem to want to relieve the buyer of all responsibility for doing what you consider irresponsible.But tell me what do you think about my air freight law?

It's simple, if I were doing the ordering for a LFS I wouldn't order the Batfish in the first place. You do order them and feel they're acceptable for the home aquarium and that is your right. I have in the past and would again deny people wishing to purchase livestock for what I felt were inappropriate setups. I don't want to relieve the customer of all responsibility, but I'm also not going to sell someone an animal that I think has little chance of survival. They can buy their Batfish at your store, not mine

Air freight can certainly be improved but in my years in the business I never saw it as a big issue. Overall the animals were handled well and delays were usually a result of weather.

 

[Serioussnaps]

This thread is worthless without the list and likely worthless with it. So where is the list?

 

[Anemone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310817#post10310817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
So far and no doubt due to the diligent work of dc I have seen nothing besides a single incoherent ramble that has seriously derailed this discussion.If you or anyone has anything to offer please do not hesitate as this is just another example of how learning new stuff can be a difficult and painful process.

Both you and loosecannon need to tone your comments down. Disagreement is fine, as is discussion and even argument, but your aggressive "style" tends to either A) discourage discussion or B) encourage flamefests.

Either change your posting style or "move on" to some other forum that appreciates that style of dialogue.

Kevin
RC Staff

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310620#post10310620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I <font size="1" color="#0000FF">profanity removed</font> on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

You following me around to various threads "fixing" my mistakes is getting rather tiring. It has become ubundantly clear that you have an agenda and that you're nitpicking to the enth degree. It's pointless to try and debate you, especially when half the time I barely understand you. How about we just agree to disagree...

 

[bureau13]

When I first saw the list, before I actually read it, I thought it was goign to be a "Ban the capture of the following fish" list. This of course would annoy me. Saltwaterfish.com has (or at least had) a blurb on their site saying they will refuse to sell more than one large angel to anyone, because you should never have more than one in a tank. This may be a "good idea" in general for newbies or people with small tanks, but there are plenty of larger tanks out there with multiple large angels doing just fine.

But I digress...Peter's list, now that I've actually read it, seems to be more of an informative list since plenty of the people who SHOULD know better (e.g. LFS employees) apparently do not. An LFS near me which frequently has batfish for sale recently had a shipment of Ornate butterflyfish. Right now, with what we know today, I don't believe any of those fish had a chance in hell of surviving. Now, do I think all those people who bought them wanted to keep them for a couple weeks and were OK with them perishing soon after? No, I'm sure most just had no idea, and would have avoided the purchase had they known. The LFS should have known not to order them, the collector should have known not to collect them, etc. That said, maybe some day research will come up with a prepared food that is a good substitute for coral polyps and we can all keep them fat and happy. However, there are a few people qualified to do that kind of research, and about a million times more who aren't. The first group has a real chance to advance the hobby. The second group is just going to kill a lot of fish. I don't really see it as a "fish rights" thing...but nobody benefits from that result.

OK, enough rambling, but any resource that informs people is a good resource, so...nice list.

jds

 

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310620#post10310620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
pete pete pete, The average lfs worker no no no . I the end user shelling out the bucs, if I can`t look up the needs of some fish how can I <font size="1" color="#0000FF">profanity removed</font> on some kid. not for nothen pete I have been fixing a lot of your missteks. how could I ever think a kidd would get right!

What?

 

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310792#post10310792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Uhmm.. everyone should? That's why Eichler's list should be required reading.

I have never seen such a resistance to the spreading of information.. very odd. Almost like you're insulted that someone would call something difficult to have / avoid if not experienced. Very bizarre.

King..required reading? Harkens back to the days of the red scare.