A Great Way to ruin a perfect wall; My 400 Gallon Project
- Thread starter SERVO
- Start date
fishgeeksrus
New member
Do you have it running that fast through the effluent box or was that just for visual purposes?
SERVO
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7542396#post7542396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
OK, so I need some advice here;
I am putting together my frag system. I have decided for flow that I would like to use Borneman's toilet flapper surge design for flow. I have a prop tank that is 40X24X9 (water depth)=45.9 gallons. I have a DSP for the drain. First, do you think that a surge set up will affect my DSP function, and second, what percentage of volume would you recommend that I use. I was thinking that 25% would be a pretty good surge. I am plumming the system into the main display, but I am going to run the surge from the prop tank. (my pump will carry water to the elevated container and redistribute the water back into the prop tank). I am in the process of getting the stand designed and need to decide what size container to use. I thought about just cheaply using a rubbermaid container, but I think that I am going to get an acrylic box made up. That way I'll be able to visually inspect the surge box. Here is another picture of the prop tank with the durso and egg crate installed.
Getting back to my question; I've been hearing different ideas on the volume of the surge system. I've also been told to use an accuated ball valve to set up the system.
http://www.plastomatic.com/tabv.html
Does anyone know the principles behind these things.
Bryan89
Premium Member
An actuated ball valve is essentially a ball valve with a motor to open and closed the valve. The motor on the valves usually can only run 25% - 50% of the time (aka duty cycle) so that it does not over heat. The valves require some type of controller to open or closed it. The valves require power to accomplish the open or close function, but will usually remain in the position they were in when power is removed. The valves do not tend to open or closed quickly and they also are a little noisy. The valves also cost about $300 or more each. I have a 3 way ball valve (one input, two outputs) and like with many things, you get what you pay for. I would look at Hayward or Spears valves, they are much higher quality than the one you linked to.
A better idea for your surge system would be a solenoid valve. The reason is that a solenoid valve open very quickly (about .5 second) and is quieter. Also, if you were to get a fail closed solenoid valve, if power were lost the valve would be closed and you would need a second higher position outlet on your surge to prevent you from overfilling the surge and potentially flooding the house. You would also need something to control the valve, but could use something like a wavemaker or other switching power supply. Negative on the solenoid valve is that I believe the biggest valve you could get is 1" which is not ideal for a large surge.
I hope this answers your question. Sorry the post was so long, I tried not to write like an engineer.
Bryan
I have not used the linked valve, but Hayward, spears, and my favorite, Asahi valves up to 2" usually open in 2 seconds, plenty fast for what we need. Since they open in 2 seconds, stay open for a preset time, then close in 2 seconds, with an average surge time of 1 minute or so (fill time), the duty cycle is VERY low. I always recommend extending the fill time to as long as you can stand it to make the valve last a loong time. 2 minutes is a good #.
You can control the timing of the valve with a float switch and timer relay, or 2 floats and a relay.
LMK if you need help
You can control the timing of the valve with a float switch and timer relay, or 2 floats and a relay.
LMK if you need help
SERVO
New member
Cuby2K; Temp is not an issue for me (knock on wood). The temps have been 100 degrees for the past few weeks, while the garage is probably 10-15 degrees warmer and my room and tank stays very cool. My tank temps runs 80-83 degrees. THe 10,000 BTU window A/C unit does the trick.
Wrenchhead; thank you so much for your compliments!!! It means a lot and helps justify to my wife why we didn't have any window dressings on our windows for a year :eek1:
Dennis/Andrea; the flow rate in the effluent box is just for visualization.
I'm kicking around various ideas for the surge system. I don't really want to spend hundreds of dollars on the system, but we'll see what happens. I may set up a simple toilet flapper system and upgrade later on.
I really appreciate all of the insight and help. No post is too long, especially if I don't have a clue about what I'm about to do.
I will let you know if I need to tap into such a valuable resource. I checked out some quotes of some A. Ball Valves and MAN are they expensive. WHEW; this site was insanely expensive; 1/2 diameter at $575 up to $647 for a 2 inch!!! Three way valves are even more.
So; the tank has been set up for almost a year. If I would have stayed up on top of my water chemistry and changes, the tank would probably look much better, but with the exception of the Coral rickets
things are looking pretty damn good. I still want to do a couple of things. Here is what I am thinking....
I have been running 10K reeflux bulbs now since December. I am very happy with them still, but I really want to compliment my lighting. I have been putting this off b/c I DO NOT want to rebuild the lighting rack. My stupid overflows (the only thing that I really hate about Oceanic tanks is their stupid overflow designs and the stupid size of the drains and returns. Ughh) are so big that I think they block some of the light. I am going to add more light. I have been kicking around a couple of ideas. One, is to get two more pendants and hang a couple of dual ended 250 W MH's. I could Squeeze them into the existing rack with minimal changes to the construction. In addition; I am going to add T5's, but I'm not sure which manufacture to use. I will have to use some type of retrokit. Not really sure.
I need to add the second wave box. The wave is just too small in the 8 foot tank Finally, I am thinking about buying some of the newer power head magnets; modifing a maxijet and sticking it behind the rockwork to get flow in the back between the overflow boxes. I am also thinking about putting a Mag pump; plumbing it up the back wall; splitting it and putting penductors on the ends. I would use Good stuff foam to make a rock like structure. The biggest downside to this is the heat that the thing would generate, plus, it would be tough to pull out and clean.
Now THATS a long post; Feedback????
Wrenchhead; thank you so much for your compliments!!! It means a lot and helps justify to my wife why we didn't have any window dressings on our windows for a year :eek1:
Dennis/Andrea; the flow rate in the effluent box is just for visualization.
I'm kicking around various ideas for the surge system. I don't really want to spend hundreds of dollars on the system, but we'll see what happens. I may set up a simple toilet flapper system and upgrade later on.
I really appreciate all of the insight and help. No post is too long, especially if I don't have a clue about what I'm about to do.
I will let you know if I need to tap into such a valuable resource. I checked out some quotes of some A. Ball Valves and MAN are they expensive. WHEW; this site was insanely expensive; 1/2 diameter at $575 up to $647 for a 2 inch!!! Three way valves are even more. So; the tank has been set up for almost a year. If I would have stayed up on top of my water chemistry and changes, the tank would probably look much better, but with the exception of the Coral rickets
things are looking pretty damn good. I still want to do a couple of things. Here is what I am thinking....I have been running 10K reeflux bulbs now since December. I am very happy with them still, but I really want to compliment my lighting. I have been putting this off b/c I DO NOT want to rebuild the lighting rack. My stupid overflows (the only thing that I really hate about Oceanic tanks is their stupid overflow designs and the stupid size of the drains and returns. Ughh) are so big that I think they block some of the light. I am going to add more light. I have been kicking around a couple of ideas. One, is to get two more pendants and hang a couple of dual ended 250 W MH's. I could Squeeze them into the existing rack with minimal changes to the construction. In addition; I am going to add T5's, but I'm not sure which manufacture to use. I will have to use some type of retrokit. Not really sure.
I need to add the second wave box. The wave is just too small in the 8 foot tank
Finally, I am thinking about buying some of the newer power head magnets; modifing a maxijet and sticking it behind the rockwork to get flow in the back between the overflow boxes. I am also thinking about putting a Mag pump; plumbing it up the back wall; splitting it and putting penductors on the ends. I would use Good stuff foam to make a rock like structure. The biggest downside to this is the heat that the thing would generate, plus, it would be tough to pull out and clean.Now THATS a long post; Feedback????
Can you put the "Good/Great Stuff" expanding foam right into the water? I mean after it has cured of course. Do you coat it with some type of epoxy that will permit surface growth?
Actually squirting that stuff under water might look kinda cool. I would hate to sacrifice my reef for it though.
Actually squirting that stuff under water might look kinda cool. I would hate to sacrifice my reef for it though.
jeffreylam1132
New member
Amazing setup and I'm barely on page 10. Need some rest and will definitely continue reading this wonderful thread tomorrow. Nice work, Servo!
Chrisrush
New member
Ryan,
Those penductors won't work well with a non-pressure rated
pump.
I would try a maxi-jet mod first, those things are pretty neat once they have been modded. I picked up one locally and it rocks. I have it behind my rocks as well. Just make sure you keep it clean.
How large of a surge were you thinking? 10 gallons? I don't think that it would be cost effective to go with a $300-500 valve on a 10 gallon surge. I'd opt for a toilet flapper instead.
Cuby2k,
The Great stuff is inert once it drys, although it is very bouyant, so you need to keep it from floating somehow.
Don't add it directly to the tank, it must cure first.
Chris
Those penductors won't work well with a non-pressure rated
pump.
I would try a maxi-jet mod first, those things are pretty neat once they have been modded. I picked up one locally and it rocks. I have it behind my rocks as well. Just make sure you keep it clean.
How large of a surge were you thinking? 10 gallons? I don't think that it would be cost effective to go with a $300-500 valve on a 10 gallon surge. I'd opt for a toilet flapper instead.
Cuby2k,
The Great stuff is inert once it drys, although it is very bouyant, so you need to keep it from floating somehow.
Don't add it directly to the tank, it must cure first.
Chris
SERVO
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7556717#post7556717 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
It isn't Good Stuff, it is "Great Stuff". :lol:
I think you need to dial in the Wavebox, because it should have no problem with an 8' tank.
More light is always good if you can pull it off.
Long post? Lightweight.
Yah, I was thinking about using the generic version (LOL) *My bad*
I wouldn't spray any of that into the water :eek1:
Steve; I'm not sure if I want to drop the cash right now. We'll see, they look super slick and the higher end is controllable, so.....the saga continues.
Jeff; Thanks for the kind words.
Chris; I thought Mag's were pressure rated? Haven't looked into this, but I'm aware of the eductor/penductor limitations on pressure; Fantastic point thou!!! I am totally on board about the Valve. I would rather get a cheap system than a $1000 dollar surge set up. Crap, I could throw in another Tunze wavebox and 6200! (although even Tunze can not emmulate a great surge!!)
SERVO
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7542396#post7542396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
OK, so I need some advice here;
I am putting together my frag system. I have decided for flow that I would like to use Borneman's toilet flapper surge design for flow. I have a prop tank that is 40X24X9 (water depth)=45.9 gallons. I have a DSP for the drain. First, do you think that a surge set up will affect my DSP function, and second, what percentage of volume would you recommend that I use. I was thinking that 25% would be a pretty good surge. I am plumming the system into the main display, but I am going to run the surge from the prop tank. (my pump will carry water to the elevated container and redistribute the water back into the prop tank). I am in the process of getting the stand designed and need to decide what size container to use. I thought about just cheaply using a rubbermaid container, but I think that I am going to get an acrylic box made up. That way I'll be able to visually inspect the surge box. Here is another picture of the prop tank with the durso and egg crate installed.
OK, back to the drawing board. Well; after checking into various options I have decided to try an internal surge set up over the toilet flapper surge design. I was thinking about using a solanoid and float switch set up; however the wiring will be way over my head. I would need major help with that, considering I have difficulty deciding what ways to put the batteries into my camera.
I also looked into using an actuated ball valve electronic surge. An actuated ball valve costs more money than I am willing to spend. I’d be better off just buying a wave box and another 6100. I don't want to spend 800 bucks for a part!!!
With a Carlson Surge device (CSD) there are still the bubble issues, although they can perform flawlessly. THe big consideration is that the flow rate into the bucket must be slow enough to allow the surge to d/c completely. If the water comes in to quickly the surge will d/c without the siphon breaking at the end of the cycle while if it comes in to slow there will not be enough head pressure to start a surge. Clearly this is a PITA to calibrate (but works flawlessly once it is up and running). You also have to calibrate the diameter of the outlet pipe to the rate of filling.
Internal CSD's are an interesting concept. For simplicity, I am going to experiment with this design into a standard bucket first. For those of you who are not familiar with the set up , a three inch pipe is fitted thru the bottom and a larger six inch pipe sits over the 3 inch PVC creating a gap between the two. The outer pipe is capped and notched at the bottom to create teeth that act as legs for the six inch pipe to sit on. When the water level rises above the cap of the larger outer tube, there is enough head pressure to cause a siphon to begin and push the water out of the smaller pipe. This is a simple design and I am hoping should have very little bubbles. (The bubbles are the least of my concerns) I have decided to use 4 inch PVC for the outer stand pipe and 2 inch for the inner stand pipe. I need to pick up a 2 inch bulkhead to start testing this. I have the teeth drilled into the outer tube and both size tubes cut to the size I will need to fit into a standard bucket.
I will need to cut a hole into a bucket, fit the bulkhead, throw the PVC into the bulk head, elevate the bucket place a piece of pipe out of the bulkhead into the tank and fill it up for testing. At that point, I'll know if this surge design will work.
The only problem is, I'm not sure when I'll get around to it.
Bryan89
Premium Member
If you can find Charles Delbeek's email, I am sure he'd be more than happy to help you with the CSD. I met him many, many times in Hawaii and was given 2 separate one on one guided tours of Waikiki aquarium with him. He is the reason I got into reef keeping. I was the only attendee at one of his first discussions of protein skimmers from an excerpt of his first book (hence the one one one guided tour, he appreciated my feedback).
Bryan
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Servo, I keep following your threads becasue I'm anxious to see what you come up with. As you know, I'm trying to find a way to make the toilet flapper surge work out for me. Funny thing is, I've already been down the road of the internal CSD and have tried virtually the same thing you are.
Again, it was more a proof of concept to see if I wanted to tinker with it further. I used 1.5 inch PVC for my inside tube (since I had this size bulkhead already) and 4" for the outside. Drilled a 5 gal bucket and used an old tired Maxi Jet 1000 for the fill. Your right, calibration is key to this design. I had no problem with the siphon breaking but I couldn't get the last 1.5 gals to empty. It likely has to do with the diamater of the PVC used, the height of the assembly, the height/width of the notches or all of the above.
I decided to abandon the attempt when I decided I couldn't come up with a way to cut down on the bubbles. It probably wasn't a lot compared to a classic CSD but it was more then I was willing to contend with. My tests were all done in fresh water as well so I knew it would only get worse once salt was added. Seeing as how this type of surge must sit above the tank water line to work, you will always have air in the tube prior to the surge which will be forced out once the surge starts. I just couldn't figure a way around that and decided I would have better luck tinkering with a flapper.
Good luck with your project, I hope you can make something work to your satisfaction. I'm sure those that are mathmatically inclined could work out the proper height, width, etc necessary for a given size container fairly easily to make this work properly. As that was never my strong suit, I didn't want to try and figure it out.
