A little confused, Who here justifies this hobby?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bill, the problem with these articles for me is one of instrument sensitivity. There certainly weren't any ion selective electrodes during the industrial age. As much as I try to find it, I cannot find data sets that set the baseline. I assume the measurments are done using proxy data. pH changes with temp, gas exchange, and instrument to instument. I work with sensitive lab equipment daily and I know that each instrument is different, even run to run analysis vary within a particular range. So the question is, how does one measure pH to a sensitivity of .1 for 2/3rds of the earth's surface from a baseline drawn 90-100 years ago?

You might also want to check the years of research from the Australian Institute Of Marine Sciences. Their studies have shown a drop of 11% of growth in Porites colonies on large parts of the great barrier reef over the last 10 years. They have put this down to the drop in the ph.

Maybe you should get in touch with them and tell them where they are going wrong. :lol:
 
Ross, Anyone can write BS on the internet and say it is the truth. I have read about the Amaon basin drying out, And it looks like about 10% of scientist think that is possible. Where as the other 90% say NO. And just because you put something in BOLD print does not mean it is your thought. I INVINTED GOOGLE. HAHAHAHA read more reliable sources and double check them for accuracy.


http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/where_we_work/amazon/problems/climate_change_amazon/

Please show me the 90% of scientists that don't agree and have a different theory as to what will happen to that Amazon with the 2-3 degree predicted warming.

Stop deluding yourself and read some proper articles and science.
 
"Your opinion is the complete opposite to that of the worlds leading sceintific institutions."

This argument no longer flies. There are numerous peer reviewed articles that cast doubt on AGW. There are thousands of scientists that have backed away and more coming every day.

"Their studies have shown a drop of 11% of growth in Porites colonies on large parts of the great barrier reef over the last 10 years."

What are their measures? Could they eilliminate all other causes? Could they prove that the corals did not have a natural increased growth rate before the 10 year study? Why "a large part" of the barrier reef, if it actually was pH shouldn't it be ALL the barrier reef? Remember a while back when they attributed large areas of coral bleaching to AGW, so what is the explanation for their recovery? Does a pH difference of .1 make a difference in the SPS growth in your tank? It doesn't in mine. These are questions a nonpolitical scientist asks when reading articles, a political person like yourself with an agenda, reads it like passages from the bible.


"But the mechanism by which CO2 heats the planet IS based on well-known, uncontroversial physics and chemistry, so everything else being equal, higher CO2 concentrations will result in a warmer atmosphere."

This is a simplistic statment that does not address many variables. Sugar makes Koolaid sweet, that is an undeniable fact. Howver, to say that putting 2 grains of sugar in a gallon of koolaid makes it twice as sweet as one grain is a pretty subjective claim. CO2 is a trace gas. Man contributes 1/2 of 1% or less of the CO2 emmitted. Their has been no correlations shown. x amount of CO2 does not raise the temp y degrees. Why not, if the relationship is so clear? Obviously, other much more power forces are in play. Then there is the matter of saturation. CO2 is clear, it can only stop so much solar radiation. It is like layering glass together, you will never put enough glass layers together to block all the light.

But the biggest problem and the area that the political supporter do not address, because they do not understand the science of the position they hold, is one of forcings. CO2 can never provide the degree of warming predicted by the models on their own. All climatologist acknowledge this. Water vapor accounts for over 95% of all greenhouse gases. Scientist claim that the effects of CO2 will cause a positive temperature feedback loop. It is an argument of the earths climate sensitivity. It is how they explain a very small amount of CO2, relativly, causing such a huge problem. Basically it states the CO2 will create more water vapor in the atmosphere. Dr Richard Lindzen and Dr. Yong-Sang Choi published a peer reviewed article in July of 2009 showing through observed data that the opposite was true. That it was actually a negative feedback loop and the sensitivity of the earth's climate was low.
 
Rossini, the wwf is a discredited organization when it comes to objective analysis. Remember, they are the ones claiming that the polar bear is endangered due to AGW dispite the fact that polar bear populations are stable or expanding.

BTW Rossine, you said "skeptics like yourself", when did skepticism become a bad thing? Why aren't you a skeptic, why isn't everyone? Skepicism is the reason we have liberty and democracy. Skepticism drove modern science. Skeptics asked questions about the way things are dispite running the risk of being executed by religious zealots. Face it, if your not a skeptic, you're a tool. You're the minion of those that would use your emotions as their source of power.
 
Last edited:
Wow, fighting on a public forum. I though this site was to help everyone learn something new. Not tear down one's idea because they have different opinions than you.
 
I did not sense a fight. I thought it was a well reasoned discussion. And although my mind has not been changed, the other side has presented a very strong and well presented case. Disagreements need not degenerate into a fight.
 
"Your opinion is the complete opposite to that of the worlds leading sceintific institutions."

This argument no longer flies. There are numerous peer reviewed articles that cast doubt on AGW. There are thousands of scientists that have backed away and more coming every day.

"Their studies have shown a drop of 11% of growth in Porites colonies on large parts of the great barrier reef over the last 10 years."

What are their measures? Could they eilliminate all other causes? Could they prove that the corals did not have a natural increased growth rate before the 10 year study? Why "a large part" of the barrier reef, if it actually was pH shouldn't it be ALL the barrier reef? Remember a while back when they attributed large areas of coral bleaching to AGW, so what is the explanation for their recovery? Does a pH difference of .1 make a difference in the SPS growth in your tank? It doesn't in mine. These are questions a nonpolitical scientist asks when reading articles, a political person like yourself with an agenda, reads it like passages from the bible.


"But the mechanism by which CO2 heats the planet IS based on well-known, uncontroversial physics and chemistry, so everything else being equal, higher CO2 concentrations will result in a warmer atmosphere."

This is a simplistic statment that does not address many variables. Sugar makes Koolaid sweet, that is an undeniable fact. Howver, to say that putting 2 grains of sugar in a gallon of koolaid makes it twice as sweet as one grain is a pretty subjective claim. CO2 is a trace gas. Man contributes 1/2 of 1% or less of the CO2 emmitted. Their has been no correlations shown. x amount of CO2 does not raise the temp y degrees. Why not, if the relationship is so clear? Obviously, other much more power forces are in play. Then there is the matter of saturation. CO2 is clear, it can only stop so much solar radiation. It is like layering glass together, you will never put enough glass layers together to block all the light.

But the biggest problem and the area that the political supporter do not address, because they do not understand the science of the position they hold, is one of forcings. CO2 can never provide the degree of warming predicted by the models on their own. All climatologist acknowledge this. Water vapor accounts for over 95% of all greenhouse gases. Scientist claim that the effects of CO2 will cause a positive temperature feedback loop. It is an argument of the earths climate sensitivity. It is how they explain a very small amount of CO2, relativly, causing such a huge problem. Basically it states the CO2 will create more water vapor in the atmosphere. Dr Richard Lindzen and Dr. Yong-Sang Choi published a peer reviewed article in July of 2009 showing through observed data that the opposite was true. That it was actually a negative feedback loop and the sensitivity of the earth's climate was low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_law_of_thermal_radiation

Observing the greenhouse effect in action

The simplest direct observation of the greenhouse effect at work is atmospheric backradiation. Any substance that absorbs thermal radiation will also emit thermal radiation; this is a consequence of Kirchoff's law. The atmosphere absorbs thermal radiation because of the trace greenhouse gases, and also emits thermal radiation, in all directions. This thermal emission can be measured from the surface and also from space. The surface of the Earth actually receives in total more radiation from the atmosphere than it does from the Sun.

The net flow of radiant heat is still upwards from the surface to the atmosphere, because the upwards thermal emission is greater than the downwards atmospheric backradiation. This is a simple consequence of the second law of thermodynamics. The magnitude of the net flow of heat is the difference between the radiant energy flowing in each direction. Because of the backradiation, the surface temperature and the upwards thermal radiation is much larger than if there was no greenhouse effect.

Atmospheric backradiation has been directly measured for over fifty years. The effects of greenhouse gases stand out clearly in modern measurements, which are able to show a complete spectrum.

IR spectrum at the North Pole
Figure 1. Coincident measurements of the infrared emission spectrum of the cloudfree atmosphere at (a) 20km looking downward over the Arctic ice sheet and (b) at the surface looking upwards. (Data courtesy of David Tobin, Space Science and Engineering Center, University of Wisconsin-Madison. Diagram courtesy of Grant Petty, from Petty 2006).

When you look down from aircraft at 20km altitude (Fig 1a), what is "seen" is the thermal radiation from Earth that gets out to that height. Some of that radiation comes from the surface. This is the parts of the spectrum that follow a line corresponding in the diagram to about 268K. Some of that radiation comes from high in the atmosphere, where it is much colder. This is the parts of the spectrum that follow a line of something like 225K. The bites taken out of the spectrum are in those bands where greenhouse gases absorb radiation from the surface, and so the radiation that eventually escapes to space is actually emitted high in the atmosphere.

When you look up from the surface (Fig 1b), what is "seen" is thermal backradiation from the atmosphere. In some frequencies, thermal radiation is blocked very efficiently, and the backradiation shows the temperature of the warm air right near the surface. In the "infrared window" of the atmosphere, the atmosphere is transparent. In these frequencies, no radiation is absorbed, no radiation is emitted, and here is where IR telescopes and microwave sounding satellites can look out to space, and down to the surface, respectively.

The smooth dotted lines in the diagram labeled with temperatures are the curves for a simple blackbody radiating at that temperature. Water vapor has complex absorption spectrum, and it is not well mixed in the atmosphere. The emissions seen below 600 cm-1 are due to water vapor appearing at various altitudes. Carbon dioxide is the major contributor for emission seen between between about 600 and 750 cm-1. The patch of emission just above 1000 cm-1 is due to ozone.

......................................................................................................


Water vapour is the most dominant greenhouse gas. Water vapour is also the dominant positive feedback in our climate system and amplifies any warming caused by changes in atmospheric CO2. This positive feedback is why climate is so sensitive to CO2 warming.

Water vapour is the most dominant greenhouse gas. The greenhouse effect or radiative flux for water is around 75 W/m2 while carbon dioxide contributes 32 W/m2 (Kiehl 1997). These proportions are confirmed by measurements of infrared radiation returning to the Earth's surface (Evans 2006). Water vapour is also the dominant positive feedback in our climate system and a major reason why temperature is so sensitive to changes in CO2.

Unlike external forcings such as CO2 which can be added to the atmosphere, the level of water vapour in the atmosphere is a function of temperature. Water vapour is brought into the atmosphere via evaporation - the rate depends on the temperature of the ocean and air, being governed by the Clausius-Clapeyron relation. If extra water is added to the atmosphere, it condenses and falls as rain or snow within a week or two. Similarly, if somehow moisture was sucked out of the atmosphere, evaporation would restore water vapour levels to 'normal levels' in short time.
Water Vapour as a positive feedback

As water vapour is directly related to temperature, it's also a positive feedback - in fact, the largest positive feedback in the climate system (Soden 2005). As temperature rises, evaporation increases and more water vapour accumulates in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the water absorbs more heat, further warming the air and causing more evaporation. When CO2 is added to the atmosphere, as a greenhouse gas it has a warming effect. This causes more water to evaporate and warm the air to a higher, stabilized level. So the warming from CO2 has an amplified effect.

How much does water vapour amplify CO2 warming? Without any feedbacks, a doubling of CO2 would warm the globe around 1°C. Taken on its own, water vapour feedback roughly doubles the amount of CO2 warming. When other feedbacks are included (eg - loss of albedo due to melting ice), the total warming from a doubling of CO2 is around 3°C (Held 2000).
Empirical observations of water vapour feedback and climate sensitivity

The amplifying effect of water vapor has been observed in the global cooling after the eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Soden 2001). The cooling led to atmospheric drying which amplified the temperature drop. A climate sensitivity of around 3°C is also confirmed by numerous empirical studies examining how climate has responded to various forcings in the past (Knutti & Hegerl 2008).

Satellites have observed an increase in atmospheric water vapour by about 0.41 kg/m² per decade since 1988. A detection and attribution study, otherwise known as "fingerprinting", was employed to identify the cause of the rising water vapour levels (Santer 2007). Fingerprinting involves rigorous statistical tests of the different possible explanations for a change in some property of the climate system. Results from 22 different climate models (virtually all of the world's major climate models) were pooled and found the recent increase in moisture content over the bulk of the world's oceans is not due to solar forcing or gradual recovery from the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo. The primary driver of 'atmospheric moistening' was found to be the increase in CO2 caused by the burning of fossil fuels.

Theory, observations and climate models all show the increase in water vapor is around 6 to 7.5% per degree Celsius warming of the lower atmosphere. The observed changes in temperature, moisture, and atmospheric circulation fit together in an internally and physically consistent way. When skeptics cite water vapour as the most dominant greenhouse gas, they are actually invoking the positive feedback that makes our climate so sensitive to CO2 as well as another line of evidence for anthropogenic global warming.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I admittedly haven't read the Dr Richard Lindzen and Dr. Yong-Sang Choi paper yet, but quick google search indicates there could be some discrepancies.

http://carboncapturereport.com/cgi-bin/biodb?PROJID=5&mode=viewpersonname&name=dr._richard_lindzen
 
Last edited:
Funny, I'm a scientist and born skeptic too and I also value adherance to established methods, one of which is supporting claims with evidence.

Michael Mann, for instance have been caught trying to stack the deck by shutting out desenting opinion... it has been recently shown that the peer review process in climatology is corrupt
Evidence please? And don't forget not to shut out dissenting opinions by neglecting that multiple inquiries have already addressed this specific claim and found it to be baseless.

And yet they differ from computer to computer by up to 800%....the original models claimed a 7 degree rise in temps from 1988 until now
Citations? I'm skeptical.

One is satallite data which clearly shows a cooling trend.
Here's the global lower tropospheric data from Remote Sensing Systems:
http://www.remss.com/data/msu/month...hannel_TLT_Anomalies_Land_and_Ocean_v03_2.txt

UAH: http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt

Show us a statistically significant cooling trend, because I just finished looking at the trends earlier this morning and didn't find it.

One being the hypothesis itself. AGW hypothesis says the solar radiation reflects off the surface of the earth and then is trapped by greenhouse gases in the statosphere. Clearly, that is where the warming should first be detected.
Huh? The stratosphere is expected to cool as GHGs in the troposphere trap upwelling IR, which is what's seen. See:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/msu/nature02524-UW-MSU.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v432/n7017/full/nature03209.html

Second ground stations are effected by heat island effect, machinery like air conditioners, and politics.
...and corrections are made to account for that. Have you calculated what impact that has on the temperature record or are you just attempting to poison the well? Menne et al calculated the effects and found that excluding stations that "skeptics" had rated as poorly sited created a slight warming bias in the data: http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2010.pdf

For instance, all ground reporting stations in Siberia have been shut down since the colapse of the Soviet Union. What effect do you think the ellimination of Siberian data has on the overall average?
Assuming that like most high-latitude areas, Siberia is warming faster than the global average (which I don't know to be true), then eliminating it from the record should create a cooling bias.

The obvious implication in mentioning Siberia is that dropping all of those stations from a cold area must induce a false warming trend in the data. That's not the case because the the trend is calculated from the temperature anomaly, not the absolute temperature. It isn't affected by whether the area with dropout is a cold or warm area, only by how fast that area was changing compared to the average.

This seems to indicate that my hunch is correct: http://clearclimatecode.org/the-1990s-station-dropout-does-not-have-a-warming-effect/

And Roy Spencer, who is a noted "skeptic" and one of the keepers of the UAH datasets does something similar with the same result: http://www.drroyspencer.com/2010/02...t-warming-of-northern-hemispheric-land-areas/

So the question is, how does one measure pH to a sensitivity of .1 for 2/3rds of the earth's surface from a baseline drawn 90-100 years ago?
This paper used measurements of oceanic DIC to determine modern distributions and subtracted out anthropogenic DIC to estimate preindustrial distributions.: http://web.archive.org/web/20080625...acidification/paper/Orr_OnlineNature04095.pdf

What are their measures?
linear extension and skeletal density

Could they eilliminate all other causes?
Changes in linear extension were correlated with temperature, but changes in skeletal density were not. They actually didn't claim that the change was due to acidification, but that it was a likely explanation.

Could they prove that the corals did not have a natural increased growth rate before the 10 year study?
Well the decline actually occurred between 1988-2003, but they looked at cores spanning 400 years. The decline was unprecedented in that time and wasn't preceded by unusual growth.

Cohen et al found the same thing in corals in Bermuda, but the decline had been occurring for about 50 years and hadn't been seen before in almost 300.

Why "a large part" of the barrier reef, if it actually was pH shouldn't it be ALL the barrier reef?
No, because DIC isn't uniform. The effects should be greatest where carbonate is lowest and least where carbonate is high. There are also thresholds that affect coral calcification, like for example an aragonite saturation state of 3 is considered the threshold for reef formation. Below that reefs erode and above that they grow. Because of the meridional variation in DIC, part of the GBR could be above the 3-omega threshold and growing while part is below the threshold and eroding.

Remember a while back when they attributed large areas of coral bleaching to AGW, so what is the explanation for their recovery?
Mass bleaching events have been due to transient extreme temperatures. Once the temp spike ends, the water cools back below the bleaching threshold and the corals that survived pick up more heat resistant clades of zooxanthellae and continue on until the next temp spike. Corals live within 1-2 deg C of their bleaching thresholds. As average temperature increases the chance of exceeding that threshold and inducing bleaching increases, increasing the frequency of mass bleaching events. The fact that they continue to grow in between events does not refute the measured increase in temperature or the observed increase in bleaching frequency.

Does a pH difference of .1 make a difference in the SPS growth in your tank? It doesn't in mine.
I bet you also monitor and adjust your alkalinity. The chief concern for calcifiers in an acidifying ocean is a decrease in the availability of carbonate ions, not the pH itself. For almost every mole of CO2 you add to seawater you lose a mole of carbonate ions, which reduces the saturation state of aragonite.

And again, the relationship between calcification and pH isn't linear. Going from an aragonite saturation state of 5 to 4 might have little measurable effect whereas going from 3 to 2 could mean no calcification.

Man contributes 1/2 of 1% or less of the CO2 emmitted.
And? The concern is about the excess CO2 we're contributing, which isn't taken back up by sinks. The other 99.5% goes back into sinks, and about half of that 0.5% sticks around in the atmosphere. Almost 100% of the excess CO2 accumulating every year is from us.

Then there is the matter of saturation. CO2 is clear, it can only stop so much solar radiation. It is like layering glass together, you will never put enough glass layers together to block all the light.
Sounds nice, but we know the greenhouse effect isn't saturated. The change in top-of-atmosphere outgoing and surface downwelling IR in the CO2 spectrum over time is something that has been directly measured.

http://rose.bris.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/1983/998/1/paper.pdf
http://www.eumetsat.int/home/Main/A...nts/document/pdf_conf_p50_s9_01_harries_v.pdf
http://landshape.org/enm/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/philipona2004-radiation.pdf

Dr Richard Lindzen and Dr. Yong-Sang Choi published a peer reviewed article in July of 2009 showing through observed data that the opposite was true.
A result which was highly dependent on their apparently arbitrary choice of breakpoints in SST cycles.

See: http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Staff/Fasullo/refs/Trenberth2010etalGRL.pdf
From the paper- "In attempting to reproduce LC09’s results (Figure 1, top) we found extreme sensitivities to their method.... Sensitivity to the method was examined by allowing for a displacement of the endpoints of their warming and cooling intervals by a month or less."
"Hence we find that LC09’s results are neither robust nor meaningful, as small sensible changes in the dates bounding their warming and cooling intervals entirely change the conclusions."
"As shown here, the approach taken by LC09 is flawed, and its results are seriously in error. LC09’s choice of dates has distorted their results and underscores the defective nature of their analysis. Incidentally, LC09 incorrectly computed the climate sensitivity by not allowing for the Planck function in their feedback parameter. For their slope of −4.5 W m−2 K−1 and using the correct equations (section 1), LC09 should obtain a feedback parameter and climate sensitivity of −0.125 and 0.82 K, respectively, rather than their values of −1.1 and 0.5 K."

polar bear populations are stable or expanding.
In areas where they had been hunted and are now protected. How are the southernmost sub-populations faring?
 
I did not sense a fight. I thought it was a well reasoned discussion. And although my mind has not been changed, the other side has presented a very strong and well presented case. Disagreements need not degenerate into a fight.

Indeed, and that is the key to such discussions remaining open. Along with keeping politics and religion out of the discussion ;)
 
exactly ,this one should be closed IMO. now way to decipher fact from fiction with all these quotes and numbers from wherever whenever it works for the sake of discussion.
 
exactly ,this one should be closed IMO. now way to decipher fact from fiction with all these quotes and numbers from wherever whenever it works for the sake of discussion.

I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't have known most of these studies/viewpoints existed unless the thread was allowed to continue to this point. And while I may not have the time to read them all now (and am nowhere near knowledgeable enough to comment on them), I do hope the discussion continues and the links remain archived for future reference.
 
"Your opinion is the complete opposite to that of the worlds leading sceintific institutions."

This argument no longer flies. There are numerous peer reviewed articles that cast doubt on AGW. There are thousands of scientists that have backed away and more coming every day.

Maybe, but they aren't very credible. Here's what an article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America had to say:

"Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97"“98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers."

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.short?rss=1&ssource=mfc

So, the overwhelming majority of experts in the field agree that human activity is causing climate change, and those who don't agree aren't as well qualified or as prominent as those who do.

Of course, just because a bunch of experts agree on something doesn't make it so, but the arguments put forward by the sceptics don't stand up to scrutiny, as I think greenbeans demonstrated pretty convincingly.
 
And? The concern is about the excess CO2 we're contributing, which isn't taken back up by sinks. The other 99.5% goes back into sinks, and about half of that 0.5% sticks around in the atmosphere. Almost 100% of the excess CO2 accumulating every year is from us.

I'm not sure I buy this, at all. There is no way the Earth can so exactly produce the same emissions year-to-year. Just the natural variation of nonhuman-emissions year-to-year (more volcanoes exploding this year opposed to last, more geysers gushing, massive natural forest fires, etc) has to be many times the CO2 that humans produce. How can the Earth handle its own significant variations, but not the overall minute amount of human emissions?
 
Last edited:
There is no way the Earth can so exactly produce the same emissions year-to-year.
It doesn't, but the interannual variation is small, and carbon sinks have some excess capacity (which is why only about half of our annual contribution actually stays in the atmosphere). For example, as you increase pCO2 in the air, the oceans take up more of it. A quick look at any any long-term atmospheric CO2 series will illustrate that although there is a seasonal cycle and long-term trend, there's very little year-to year variation in the amount that stays in the atmosphere.

The most famous example is the Keeling curve
maunaloa_co2.jpg

Notice that even years like 1991, when the second largest volcano of the century blew, you still don't get a blip in the curve.

Just the natural variation of nonhuman-emissions year-to-year (more volcanoes exploding this year opposed to last, more geysers gushing, massive natural forest fires, etc) has to be many times the CO2 that humans produce.
No. All of the vulcanism globally produces about 0.3-1% of the CO2 humans do (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php). The interannual variability is orders of magnitude smaller than what we add every year.
 
If I am mistaken, the Keeling Curve is an reading of CO2 levels in the air. At one point, Mauna Loa, a volcano in Hawaii. I'll leave why that is a probably a poor choice :rolleyes:

That's not what I for though. I asked for the amounts of CO2 emited by nonhuman activites, not how much CO2 is in the air. I mean, we have hard numbers right? We have percentages like 99%-99.5% of CO2 is from non-human activies. Anthropogenic is .5%-1%. Volcanic activity is .1% apparently. So we have to know the numbers right? Or pretty soon, these estimates on estimates is going to collapse on itself.... If not from Volcanoes, where does the rest of this 99.5% come from?

Additionally, I believe it was posted earlier, anthropogenic CO2 emissions are down over 30% from the economic downturn., Why is that not showing up in any of those graphs? Or did they forget to 'adjust' accordingly :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Yep. Apparently it's even widely accepted.

Howver, to say that putting 2 grains of sugar in a gallon of koolaid makes it twice as sweet as one grain is a pretty subjective claim. CO2 is a trace gas. Man contributes 1/2 of 1% or less of the CO2 emmitted. Their has been no correlations shown. x amount of CO2 does not raise the temp y degrees.



And? The concern is about the excess CO2 we're contributing, which isn't taken back up by sinks. The other 99.5% goes back into sinks, and about half of that 0.5% sticks around in the atmosphere. Almost 100% of the excess CO2 accumulating every year is from us.
 
im sorry i misunderstood you...

that said (i'll respond to the co2 that matters to the AGW debate...whats in the atmosphere)

if 99.5% of co2 is absorbed into sinks than the remaining .5% that stays in the atmosphere is compiled. it keeps incresing. thats where the problems arise. .5% increase per year would create a 100% increase in just 144 years. (according to the law of 72)

and as green bean and the two articles i will post suggest, humans are largely responsible for that .5 percent increase.

two interesting articles.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...osub2sub-increase-is-due-to-human-activities/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...ncreases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/

cheers
 
That's not what I for though. I asked for the amounts of CO2 emited by nonhuman activites, not how much CO2 is in the air. I mean, we have hard numbers right? We have percentages like 99%-99.5% of CO2 is from non-human activies. Anthropogenic is .5%-1%. :rolleyes:

AquaKnight, do have a source for these numbers? I tried really hard to find one and couldn't.

What I did find is an estimate that respiration (by animals) releases about 50 gigatonnes of CO2 per year and decay another 60 gigatonnes:

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Carbon_cycle

According to NASA, human activities other than respiration release about 7.1 gigatonnes per year, of which 3.2 gigagtonnes is estimated to remain in the atmosphere:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/CarbonCycle/carbon_cycle4.php

So, ignoring very minor sources like volcanoes, that would mean that humans account for about 6.5 per cent (=7.1/(50+60)) of total emissions, an order of magnitude higher than your quoted 0.5 per cent.

What really matters, though, is how much our CO2 emissions are increasing the total amount in the atmosphere. Again according to NASA, the atmospheric stock is 750 gigatonnes, so the 3.2 gigatonnes of anthropogenic emissions that remain in the atmophere each year would increase the stock by about 0.4 per cent. Maybe that's where the 0.5 per cent figure came from?

As ctenophors rule pointed out, that small figure adds up pretty quickly. I don't know very much about reefkeping, but my guess is that you'd run into problems pretty quickly if you increased the amount of salt in your aquarium by 0.5 per cent a day ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top