A little confused, Who here justifies this hobby?

Status
Not open for further replies.
So Rich, what is it that upsets you the most about me, that I have an opinion or that I express it?

This seems like a benign discussion about the merits of an area of scientific research. Is it necessary to draw battle lines and choose sides with everything discussed these days?
 
Even with all this talk of Global warming I do have questions about past temps. Don't get me wrong I know all these greenhouse gases can't be good but think of this. When you watch the weather what is one thing they always show you? The record highs and lows. I see records that were set in the 30's the 50's and 60's all the time. Why was it so hot then? I don not have the exact dates in front of me, but I remember an April day that was 99 degrees in NJ from like 1947, How come these high temps are never brought up?
 
Local weather phenomenon do not prove or disprove the AGW hypothesis. But you are right, some of the hottest years on record were in the 1930's. Once you have established whether you believe in AGW, the next step is deciding whether you believe it is bad. History shows us that in periods of warmth the earth prospered. A cold earth is much more detrimental to life on this planet than a warm one. The 1970's global cooling scare shows that environmentalists have chosen our current temp to be the perfect temp for the earth. 4 billion years of evolution and climate change has led to this one perfect time when all the world is in balance. This of course is nonsence. The earth is never in balance. Nature lives through boom and bust. Evolution depends on caos.
 
Am I the only one here who's heard of carbonic acid?
No, but you may be the only person that thinks carbonic acid being added to the ocean, will cause the pH level to rise. :lmao:

Instead of trying to regurgitate info like Rossini does from PlanetGreen or some AGW sponsored website, it's best to do some research yourself.
 
Last edited:
The hypothesis that the Oceans would develope a more acidic pH while practical in theory, has not proven itself through observation. The oceans are not becoming more acidic. Also the degree of acidity that the oceans would need to become to effect sealife has not been determined.

You might want to do some fact checking with Oceanographers. They will tell you that the average pH of the ocean surface water has indeed dropped .1, from 8.2 to 8.1 since the begining of the industrial revolution and is expected to drop further. Keep in mind, that while .1 seems small, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that is indeed a significant change. Here's a good basic article on the subject that serve as an introduction and jumping off point to further research of available literature.

As for effects on marine life, yes there is much unknown. However, there has also been work done that shows negative affects on shellfish larvae development and survival. There has also been work to show clownfish will have trouble sniffing out anemones to settle in.
 
Bill, the problem with these articles for me is one of instrument sensitivity. There certainly weren't any ion selective electrodes during the industrial age. As much as I try to find it, I cannot find data sets that set the baseline. I assume the measurments are done using proxy data. pH changes with temp, gas exchange, and instrument to instument. I work with sensitive lab equipment daily and I know that each instrument is different, even run to run analysis vary within a particular range. So the question is, how does one measure pH to a sensitivity of .1 for 2/3rds of the earth's surface from a baseline drawn 90-100 years ago?
 
Mmckibben, you still have your ideas backwards, you said raised pH, it is actually thought to becoming more acidic, lowering Ph, but your only 15 so not prob. I do encourage you to persue scientific studies. You will find it facinating.
 
Just to be clear, I do not have a political position on AGW, I merely want the science to form my opinion, not the politics. I cannot accept a hypothesis until contrary evidence has been addressed. Evolution theory for example, very controversial, but as a biologist, I believe it, why? because in over 100 years of experimentation, not one single experiment supporting it has failed. Not one single experiment has ever run contrary to the theory. Yet there are numerous experiments that have provided substantial evidence against the current thinking on AGW. This does not mean it isn't true, it just means it is an infant and not yet fully understood science.
 
The earths climate is incredibly complex. "CO2 is a greenhouse gas" is not a difinitive argument. There are saturation points, natural causes, and positive and negative forcings to consider. The climate is so complex that only a super computer can crunch the numners. This causes a problem with my first point about scientific method. One step of the scientific method is violated due to the sheer complexity of the problem, that is laboratory experimentation. Sure you can do small experiments on salamanders or something, but you cannot tie that experiment to global climate change to the exclusion of all other cyclicall or natural causes. So climatologists must rely on the computer models.

Mcary, you're right. Predictions from climate change models don't have the same validity as, say, predictions from Newtonian physics. But the mechanism by which CO2 heats the planet IS based on well-known, uncontroversial physics and chemistry, so everything else being equal, higher CO2 concentrations will result in a warmer atmosphere. Of course, everything else may not remain equal, but it seems to me that the burden of proof is on the sceptics to show how this impact is being offset. Can you point to a single, credible, peer-reviewed climate model that DOESN'T predict a link between CO2 and global temperatures?

You also say "As far as global temps, there are two data sets on this. One is satallite data which clearly shows a cooling trend." Can you provide a link to the data source? Here's what NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies says: "January 2000 to December 2009 was the warmest decade on record."

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20100121/

My guess is that NASA is credible as far as satellite data are concerned.
 
I'm 15, yet have spent an extra $800 to make my aquarium more eco-friendly. If a kid can, why can't you?

Well said, Mmckibben. As the focus of this forum is supposed to be ways that hobbyists can promote positive change, I'd be interested in where the $800 went and generally what you think is "best practice" for people who want a reef tank but are concerned about the environment and the ocean in particular.

I've decided the tank will have to wait until the (small) SUV gets replaced by a (smaller) TDI clean diesel, which is almost as low-emission as a Prius on the highway.
 
Yes Andrew, I'm sure you believe what you wrote. Typically you present absolute statements like "The notion that the peer review process is flawed and corrupt regarding climate change is false." Of course you are not the arbiter of what is true and what is false. May I ask, have you examined all the information on this subject with an objective eye, or did you find something that supported your ideology and declare it to be the authority on the subject?

As far as global temps, there are two data sets on this. One is satallite data which clearly shows a cooling trend. The other is NOAA ground collection stations that show an increase. AGW advocates try to make the claim that the ground stations should be the standard. This is rediculous for a number of reasons. One being the hypothesis itself. AGW hypothesis says the solar radiation reflects off the surface of the earth and then is trapped by greenhouse gases in the statosphere. Clearly, that is where the warming should first be detected. Satellites measure that part of the earth. Second ground stations are effected by heat island effect, machinery like air conditioners, and politics. For instance, all ground reporting stations in Siberia have been shut down since the colapse of the Soviet Union. What effect do you think the ellimination of Siberian data has on the overall average? So you see, when you hear that the last 10 years are the hottest on record, you are being fed cherry picked information from an entity with an agenda. A cursory objective unbiased look will clearly show that it isn't that cut and dry. AGW may be a valid hypothesis or not, that point has not yet been established, the one clear thing we can say, is that it isn't even close to rising to the level of a theory yet.


Your correct; I wasn't the independent arbiter, and I haven't read every single paper/study regarding this matter. I can however produce resources derived from peer reviewed scholarly journals I recommend you read.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...EqPQcH-CeyK8kFT9vJpviShjc#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.climateshifts.org/?p=5515

Given the isotopic data correlating the anthropogenic origin of Carbon within our atmosphere, I personally cannot rationalize your assertions. The science behind CO2's effects of warming our atmosphere were produced in the 70's.As a scientist; You should know taking a data set from a 10 year period isn't sufficient to draw any concrete conclusions on climate change. If you take a look at the temperature increases from the 1880's to present a clearer picture will develop.
 
Last edited:
This is beginning to warm up a bit and im just wondering why should we justify this to anyone as this is simply a hobby of desire for beauty .i make money from my "hobby" so i can certainly justify it as it is somewhat just a tad bit more legal than other hobbies that some have .
 
Man made global warming is a false science made up for people like Al Gore to make money and governments to have another reason to tax more money. A volcano eruption puts out more greenhouse gases than thousands of suv's and factories.
 
This is beginning to warm up a bit and im just wondering why should we justify this to anyone as this is simply a hobby of desire for beauty .i make money from my "hobby" so i can certainly justify it as it is somewhat just a tad bit more legal than other hobbies that some have .

Wrasseman, if you don't believe or don't care that we are causing the planet to warm, don't believe or don't care that our CO2 emissions are causing the oceans to acidify, don't believe or don't care that unscrupulous and uneducated collectors are damaging reefs, and don't have any issues with local water shortages (and you probably don't in Syracuse), then there is nothing to justify.

But many people disagree with you on these issues, and for some of us this raises ethical issues, hence the need to justify our involvement in the hobby.
 
honestly if you own a reef tank and are wasting massive amounts of electricity then you have no need to justify except purely for enjoyment . i can justify everything that i do and my need for reef corals and fish is a major part of my life and fully justifiable . i have way to many tanks but i am in the process of installing another at this time . the only place in my house that doesn't have multiple tanks is my bathroom . some day i will get one in there if i can get that past the boss first .until then i will find ways to get more ,bigger and better system regardless of cost or consumption of water ,electricity and space within my house so i can justify my addiction . are you wrestling with yours ? this is somewhat heated in everyone's reaction and really should be a discussion which is what RC is all about . positive exchange of information for the bettering of the hobby . if every one wants to argue then what is the point of it all . the original question has been forgotten for the indulgence of sake of argument which is absurd . i have friends that are simply mortified at what i am doing in excess but its simple to me as i could be spending a thousand dollars a week on heroin ,coke or weed but choose not to .at the same time most of my friends and family are intrigued by what i have accomplished . instead i am collecting every possable coral and fish that i can get my hands on for my pleasure only . if we need to justify this then simply give up as realistically you don't need to justify a thing as long as you are happy . i do not care what others think because i am confident in my actions along with the impact on this tiny little planet that we have been on for seconds of its life in the grand scheme of things . if this doesn't make sense i really dont care and again its my life and i will do as i please . this world is here for me to enjoy along with everyone else . we are animals just like every other but we posses the capacity to act not only react upon given situations as all the other animals are left to do. many will hate me for my true words but at least i am being honest with you and I with my motivations as i am not sugar coating them .at the same time i am not here to save the world as many millions have failed to lay down the tracks to do so and it is not my duty to even try because if every one doesn't try its simply not going to make an impact enough to make a lasting difference . yes we are negatively impacting this planet but much less than china ,japan ,Korea , Iran ,Africa,soviet union and all the others that are so massively depleting and polluting this sphere to the point of irreversibility .this place will freeze ,burn ,flood and be parched with of without us as we are not in control although many think we are .
the eruption in Iceland erased all of the green carbon erasing efforts that we have made in the past 20 plus years and there is nothing we can do about it .wait till California falls off into the ocean and all of there efforts will be in vain .needles to say when yellow stone blows we are all doomed on this particular continent ,first we get to suffocate then we all freeze . fun huh ?
 
this is somewhat heated in everyone's reaction and really should be a discussion which is what RC is all about . positive exchange of information for the bettering of the hobby

I agree and I was hoping (as a complete noob) for some exchange about best environmental practices for reef keeping

i could be spending a thousand dollars a week on heroin ,coke or weed

I don't think you can spend a thousand dollars a week on weed - though that didn't stop me from trying when I was in university :lolspin:


i do not care what others think

I know you don't Wrasseman, but I care what I think and I think reef keeping can have a negative impact on the the thing we all profess to love -- reefs -- hence my interest in learning about best practice
 
So Rich, what is it that upsets you the most about me, that I have an opinion or that I express it?

This seems like a benign discussion about the merits of an area of scientific research. Is it necessary to draw battle lines and choose sides with everything discussed these days?



Your opinion is the complete opposite to that of the worlds leading sceintific institutions.

There is a mountain evidence supporting man made climate change, to find ways to deny it skeptics like yourself have to climb that mountain and down the other side, to find crumbs at the bottom that then dissapear in your hands.

I'm afraid denying the science of climate change is comparable to denying evolution,the link between HIV and Aids or that the earth is round and not flat.

Maybe you will find this article interesting, it talks about the real gaps in climate science. It's from one of the worlds leading scientific journals not a pyseudo science blog.


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100120/pdf/463284a.pdf
 
Man made global warming is a false science made up for people like Al Gore to make money and governments to have another reason to tax more money. A volcano eruption puts out more greenhouse gases than thousands of suv's and factories.

Completley false. You have been duped.

All the worlds volcanoes emit 1/100th of what humans do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top