A must read for those considering ORA mandarins
- Thread starter Flanders
- Start date
redrider911
New member
Nice! I know 5380 was looking at getting one I think.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Interesting thread. Controversial, of course. My opinion on the matter, which I'm more comfortable sharing here in the club vs. out in the open, is that eating or not, captive bred specimens are preferable to wild caught. It's too bad that so many people were interested because of ORA's claims about eating prepared food, which to me isn't nearly as important as the fact that these fish were bred in captivity and have no impact on the wild reefs. Unfortunately it seems like many people bought the fish because they didn't want to go through the effort of setting up a proper tank for a picky eater, not because they were interested in supporting aquacultured livestock.
I agree with you 100%. Captive breeding is the future of this hobby. They're still mandarins and require a lot of food. They probably won't survive off of just pellets. They still need a good supply of live rock and natural foods. FWIW, I had a wild caught mandarin that would eat formula 1 and 2 pellets.
I absolutely agree with that. it's a shame, really.
I thought the last post (so far) in the thread was very interesting - that the rigors of the wild may naturally cull many more mandarins than would ever have survived to feed successfully as adults in a captive-bred situation. There were people in that thread who stated their mandarins never hunted - anecdotal information on a very small scale, but it's interesting. It certainly makes me wonder if ORA may have underestimated the importance of the role of wild rearing in the adult dietary habits of such a specialized feeder.
Who knows, though. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Scott48
New member
I also agree 100% about captive breeding being the future and a necessity.
In the thread a couple people stated their ORA mandarins still starved to death, which would be very bad if people are ordering them thinking they can keep them alive and they cant so even more mandarins die. But I also have had 3 wild mandarins and a red scooter and have gotten all of them to eat frozen mysis, i still have them all to exept for one mandarin which got stuck in an intake.
In the thread a couple people stated their ORA mandarins still starved to death, which would be very bad if people are ordering them thinking they can keep them alive and they cant so even more mandarins die. But I also have had 3 wild mandarins and a red scooter and have gotten all of them to eat frozen mysis, i still have them all to exept for one mandarin which got stuck in an intake.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
One thought - if ORA has managed to get the fish to sale-able size, they were clearly eating something. So, either the people who failed weren't really trying hard enough, or the fish was somehow traumatized by the shipping/sale process to the point that it picked up an eating disorder.
I'd love to stock my 360g with nothing but aquacultured livestock. I would be doing this to support breeders and in the hope that it meant less collection on natural reefs, NOT because I perceive the captive-bred livestock to be superior in any way. But unfortunately given the current state of captive breeding efforts, that would result in a rather one-dimensional tank (at least with respect to fish selection).
I'd love to stock my 360g with nothing but aquacultured livestock. I would be doing this to support breeders and in the hope that it meant less collection on natural reefs, NOT because I perceive the captive-bred livestock to be superior in any way. But unfortunately given the current state of captive breeding efforts, that would result in a rather one-dimensional tank (at least with respect to fish selection).
Or: maybe getting the fish to eat enough to grow to a saleable size doesn't necessarily mean its nutritional needs have been fully met. Or maybe they have only fed in the presence of others and require a group feeding response that would never have been conditioned in the wild.
I think shipping puts more stress on animals than most people believe.
In order to really come down on ORA, you would have to figure out what percentage of mandarins die from being collected and compare that with the percentage of ORA mandarins that die once they leave the facility. I would put money on ORA mandarins having a significantly higher survival rate.
You are right. Unfortunately, not many species are bred and available. I think part of this is due to the fish we want to keep. If clownfish usually have a 15 or 20 gallon breeding tank, with another 10-20 gallon grow out tank, imagine what a tang or triggerfish would need? You would need tanks in the hundreds of gallons to successfully raise them.
You can get clowns, dottybacks, gobies, jawfish, and many other species of fish captive bred. At least it is a start. Also there are captive bred shrimp. Hopefully people start to branch out and try breeding other fish that are more challenging.
There is too much carnage in the hobby for sure. I strongly support stocking with captive bred animals. The lack of proper acclimation processes to avoid ammonia poisoning and a lack of quarantine and perhaps prophylactic treatment of new specimens contribute heavily, ime and opinion. Captive bred specimens may not necessarily be better survivors but the odds are probably better. With mandarins ,I suspect competition for food may be a very significant predictor in survival rates.
RandyO
Active member
I picked up a couple of ORA's Spotted Mandarins the first week they were available. I put one in a brand new setup 20 gallon tank that I just set up for a pair of Flame wrasses and the other in our established cube system with pods. The cube it was in was only 6"x6"x6" and I had put a couple tank bred Pajama cardinals from ORA in the same cube.
I noticed both mandarins did not hunt much. The one in the cube had the food fall right in front of it's face, but it did not seem interested. The one with the flame wrasses got fed a little more often, and he started to eat and swim around more.
We ended up selling the one with the Flame Wrasses and the other was still not eating, so I moved him to the 20, where the other one did well. He died a few days later.
I was a little disappointed with the results so far, but I'll still try more of them.
I noticed both mandarins did not hunt much. The one in the cube had the food fall right in front of it's face, but it did not seem interested. The one with the flame wrasses got fed a little more often, and he started to eat and swim around more.
We ended up selling the one with the Flame Wrasses and the other was still not eating, so I moved him to the 20, where the other one did well. He died a few days later.
I was a little disappointed with the results so far, but I'll still try more of them.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
But regardless of how that experiment turned out, the captive bred fish (dead or alive) existed with zero impact on wild reef populations per fish, while the wild-caught fish (whether they died or not) had 100% impact on wild populations per fish. In other words, we can breed mandarins all day long without impacting wild populations, but every wild caught specimen impacts wild populations. This is true regardless of which fish survive and for how long.
I'm as guilty as everyone else for buying wild caught specimens, so I'll get off my soapbox now, but just wanted to provide some food for thought in this discussion. I think it's fair to say that at some point in the future we may have to depend on captive bred livestock. That time isn't here yet, but IMHO we should be preparing for it and transitioning BEFORE there's a serious issue, rather than waiting for it to catch us by surprise.
Anyone ever see any actual data on the impact of ornamental fish collection on wild populations? Clearly every fish that is collected is a fish that's no longer on the reef, but it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever seen any data on how significant an impact collection is on any species.
Can anyone think of any species that used to be common in the hobby that are scarce now due to overcollection?
Can anyone think of any species that used to be common in the hobby that are scarce now due to overcollection?
dreaminmel
New member
In an issue of CORAL I received last year there was an article about Banggai Cardinalfish populations becoming thinned out in their native habitat. They're only found in the Banggai archipelago off the east coast of Sulawesi, Indonesia. It would seem captive breeding of these fish helped to some degree.
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I agree with you 100%
Nobody is going to buy any captive raised animal if their survival rate is much worst than wild caught though. I doubt they die more, and I'd put money on them surviving more. But, if captive bred mandarins do die more than wild caught mandarins, people will continue to buy wild caught ones.
I really do commend ORA for breeding mandarins (and all their other fish). It really is a great thing and people should buy these over wild caught fish. I'm hoping to finally get a few pairs of fish myself to go along with the peppermint shrimp I've picked up recently. It would be nice to have a full display of all captive bred fish. Unfortunately there's not enough species to be able to do this.
I have a spotted ORA mandarin I got several months ago. I got it from LA DD, and it has been doing great. This etailer is known for selling healthy, conditioned, eating fish (WC or CB). They also know how to pack for shipping. It may make a large difference how the fish are handled once they leave ORA, since the breeder does not sell direct.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I'm glad you bumped this back up, Lisa 
I've never had any trouble keeping any Mandarinfish I've purchased purchased alive.
I've even had a spawning pair in the same aquarium as five Leopard Wrasses (food competitors), so why should I roll the dice (and pay more money!) for an ORA raised Mandarinfish.... these fishes aren't endangered by any means.
Now that I'm done bragging....
What's the real point of my post?
Don't purchase ANY Mandarinfish unless you set your aquarium up for success with one. Mandarinfish will thrive in an established aquarium with lots of pods and microfauna. Real liverock and a refugium will help recreate an environment in which these fishes can thrive.
Very important: never purchase any Dragonette that looks starved (ie: sunken/pinched belly/body).
ORA should be extremely proud that they can offer an alternative to WC Dragonettes but if you set up your aquarium properly any Mandarin/Dragonette can survive for many years without having to rely on the aquarist for feedings.
I'm particularly interested in hearing if RandyO (or anyone else) has more long term observations to add here.
I've never had any trouble keeping any Mandarinfish I've purchased purchased alive.
I've even had a spawning pair in the same aquarium as five Leopard Wrasses (food competitors), so why should I roll the dice (and pay more money!) for an ORA raised Mandarinfish.... these fishes aren't endangered by any means.
Now that I'm done bragging....
What's the real point of my post?
Don't purchase ANY Mandarinfish unless you set your aquarium up for success with one. Mandarinfish will thrive in an established aquarium with lots of pods and microfauna. Real liverock and a refugium will help recreate an environment in which these fishes can thrive.
Very important: never purchase any Dragonette that looks starved (ie: sunken/pinched belly/body).
ORA should be extremely proud that they can offer an alternative to WC Dragonettes but if you set up your aquarium properly any Mandarin/Dragonette can survive for many years without having to rely on the aquarist for feedings.
I'm particularly interested in hearing if RandyO (or anyone else) has more long term observations to add here.
naprestsleep
blank
Short long term obervation here:
Had mine since mid November, ate pellet when I had him separated for about two months, Been in the DT for 3+ weeks and I see him hunting and eating pellet, no signs of weight loss.
Had mine since mid November, ate pellet when I had him separated for about two months, Been in the DT for 3+ weeks and I see him hunting and eating pellet, no signs of weight loss.
teamdulski
The Saltiest!
Mine is still chubby after 5 months.
FWIW, I don't offer mine pellets (never tried), only frozen food, usually Ocean Nutrition cubes - various types. Lovely fish. Even though these aren't endangered, I like the idea of one that's acclimated to captivity and has experience with frozen/pellets. This makes a huge difference in long term survival in seahorses, and I look at mandarins as having similar requirements.
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