A take on BB methodology.

[MiddletonMark]

Richard ... it's terrible to hear about your problems.

I'm suprised, but there's always something new with these reef tanks ... despite how black/white people like things to be.

Just wish I could help
--

I dunno, I think to much of this whole discussion ignores the whole upgrade/downgrade in tank size, house/tank moving, equipment changing that most people do ... for most of us to set up an aquarium and expect to run, as-is, `forever' is a little short-sighted.

Sure, some folks do set up tanks that will be there for 5-10+ years, as is ... but what % of folks is that? We've got a couple in this thread with huge built-in [or such] tanks who are looking for that longevity - yet I know I'll make 3 years my current tank before upgrading. We'll probably move to a new home in 6-10 years ... so even my next tank has about 6 years max that it will be set up in the same spot, the same way.

In that sense ... neither system needs to be `forever', as I'll have time to cook rocks, change things every few years anyway. Not that I want to have to re-vamp my tank then ... but I expect to have to do something. Hmmm, maybe I should put sand back in ... j/k. I'm happy with the tank as-is, but to expect that my first BB setup will run forever ... I dunno, but I expected to have to learn along the way and need to change things. Seems like I already have.


Even if BB were a perfect system, able to run for a century ... I don't presume to be a perfect reefkeeper, able to make it do that. At least not yet

And frankly, I'm happy to think I'm going to move within a decade. Variety is the spice of life, after all. Heck - some of us here might be keeping LPS, or softies, or [gasp!] FOWLR a decade from now.

 

[Bomber]

I dunno, I think to much of this whole discussion ignores the whole upgrade/downgrade in tank size, house/tank moving, equipment changing that most people do ... for most of us to set up an aquarium and expect to run, as-is, `forever' is a little short-sighted.

typhoons, earthquakes, nuclear holocaust, hurricanes, lightning, power outage and equipment failure, flood, famine and pestilence.....

or just changed mood and decided to do guppies.

Marc are you on some ethereal herbal tea this morning?

Drink coffee! LOL and yes I do expect my tank to run forever. Or at least don't surprise me by crashing when I think it's doing just fine.

 

[AlgaeMan]

If you add rock to a tank that has not been "cooked" will the phosphates eventually be removed? I have added uncooked rock to my tank and hope I won't be plagued forever with the phosphates.

 

[MiddletonMark]

No coffee or nothing ... yet. Good idea.

Just playing counterpoint, as I've learned a whole lot in the process of running a BB IMO. In a few years, I'll run it even better- but don't think I'm there yet

I sure hope forever isn't how long I have to wait for a `big tank'

 

[Bomber]

If you add rock to a tank that has not been "cooked" will the phosphates eventually be removed? I have added uncooked rock to my tank and hope I won't be plagued forever with the phosphates.

it should eventually balance out. You don't want it totally removed. But Redfield says you need very little.

 

[Bomber]

No coffee or nothing ... yet. Good idea.

While you have your coffee let's play a ethereal mental massage.

What do marine sediments do?

What happens when you have a DSB crash?

Are there any guarantees that a DSB will not crash?

 

[MiddletonMark]

What do marine sediments do?

Get coated in bacteria
[which will flux aka grow/die]

In places, trap debris. In other places, get flushed with water. The first is a lot easier to find/do than the latter.

What happens when you have a DSB crash?

I see it as increasing levels of nutrients in the aquaria become problematic and impact negatively on the inhabitants.
For some it could be aesthetic-based [algae, coloration].

Essentially, you amass a large collection of phosphorus compounds, though I you could probably get a lot of N too.

Are there any guarantees that a DSB will not crash?

Are there any guarantees that someone can run a BB correctly with their current setup, without needing to upgrade equipment or alter their stocking more than they plan to?

Given the right setup, there might be more assurance, true.

Besides, are there any guarantees that I'll live long enough to see it crash? :lol2:

 

[Bomber]

ok, I'll jump start it.

What do marine sediments do?

They sink nutrients and flux.

What happens when you have a DSB crash?

Usually that's talking about the appearance of problem algae in a system that did not have that problem before, elevated nutrient levels, failure to thrive - especially in corals with hard skeletons, - the release of phosphorus compounds from the sediment.

Are there any guarantees that a DSB will not crash?

None

Mainly because there's no way for hobbyists to tell what shape a DSB is in until they start having problems with the DSB.

 

[Bomber]

You took so long I thought you were waiting on the coffee to perk! LOL

Sorry I jumped in, you're right.

""Are there any guarantees that someone can run a BB correctly with their current setup, without needing to upgrade equipment or alter their stocking more than they plan to?""

Take out the word correctly. that wouldn't be running it correctly then would it.
All you need to do is figure out a way to get the crud out. If you're not good at getting the crud out, you can't keep as much stuff in it - if you're real good at getting the crud out, you can keep a ton of stuff in it.

That simple.

 

[Bomber]

Are there any guarantees that a DSB will not crash?

Now back to this question without answering it with another question.

because a BB will never crash if you run it BB and get the crud out.
If you don't get the crud out, or hook up something else to store it, etc etc - you're not running BB.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Are there any guarantees that a DSB will not crash?

As I see it, not really.

Did I tell you I think your fish is ugly? :lmao:

 

[Bomber]

Brown tort! rotfl :lol:

Stop it, I'm not awake enough yet.

So knowing what marine sediments do, knowing that dirt kills these corals, knowing that there's no way to tell ahead of time how a DSB is doing, etc etc

Knowing all we know about this:

How ethical is it for the hobby sand bed experts to write articles on ethical treatment of corals and reefs and responsibility, etc etc while at the same time promoting coral husbandry like this?

I'll leave you with that while I go diving.

 

[MiddletonMark]

No fair!

Though I got to see a number of endangered cranes yesteday, in fact I saw every kind in existence, from every continent.
They're remarkably inquisitive ... come right up to check you out, you're unsure who is on display.

 

[galleon]

What do marine sediments do?

 

[fishdoc11]

I'll leave you with that while I go diving.

No fair!......I haven't been diving all year. Of course that's what I get for having two kids a year and a half apart and living in Tennessee
And of course I wouldn't change that

Great discussion guys, keep it up

Chris

 

[dgasmd]

I just read the entire thread and it does not cease to fascinate me how people sometimes are so obssessed with the leaves that they miss the entire tree or worse yet the entire forrest.

Let me back track a little here to the begining where someone had quoted Borneman. First of, we should all get the same definitions before before comparing notes or we don't speak the same language. Borneman's definition of a successful looking tank is more the looks of a refugium than what anyone us interpret as a successful tank. He believes a tank should look like the bottom of a reef does with sediments, macroalgae, and lots of other plants, sponges, etc. I don't know of single person that has a tank that looks like that, although he claims that is how his tank looks. I say claims because I have never seen a picture of his tank. I am just repeating what he has said numerous times in other threads. So, in his view, a tank like Bomber's or Steve Weast's tanks are very sterile and unnatural.

Second, there is no research that I know of that shows the detriment or success for that matter of a DSB, a BB, shallow bed, etc. in an aquarium setting. Most are some form of speculation with no control or good population to test. So, that is called observation and speculation until proven otherwise. Do some have lots of commons sense or good scientific logic backing the claims? Sure they do, but it does not make them necessariy right.

Third, I am always very suspect of an indicidual that is considered extremely knowledgeable in some aquarium technique like (DSB and Dr. Shimek), but yet fails for years to mantain a simple aquarium. I am not making this up as he has admitted numerous times in his own forum his lack of ability to mantain a tank for number of years. However, this is still not provomg or disproving that what he has said has merit. It just makes me very suspect. This does not take away respect for his apparent knowledge in some other areas though.

Fourth, stop asking for thing to go on forever. Nothing does. There is a lot more to a successfull long term marine system than a single part of it. It is not just the lighting, or the ballasts, water changes, or the pumps, or the flow, or the feeding, or the fish, or the clean up crew, or DSB or BB. It is a combination of things. Nobody can show you a 15 y.o. tank full of acros that has been BB for that long because back in the 90's the 3-5 guys keeping these corals alive have likely changed most things in their tanks. So, even if they were still BB you couldn't say the tank is successfull just because of it given other variables have changed. It is a never ending argument. Besides, nobody would listen to those guys anyway.

Also, remember that tanks are not the ocean. They are far from it. Treat them as such.

Now that I got that anger out of me, I will go get some coffee. Back to the previously scheduled argument :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Bomber]

Second, there is no research that I know of that shows the detriment or success for that matter of a DSB, a BB, shallow bed, etc. in an aquarium setting. Most are some form of speculation with no control or good population to test. So, that is called observation and speculation until proven otherwise.

Alberto, we know exactly what marine sediments do in aquariums - they are called models. Scientists set up models/aquariums all the time to model what sediments do.

Have you read this thread? If not, while you look at it pay attention when you see a paper referencing models.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=263482&highlight=Journals

 

[wrassie86]

Oddly, I have been struggling with RTN/STN in my 5 month old BB system. I checked every aspect that I can think of (cal, alk, mag, po4, no3, PH, stray electrical current) and everything tests normal. I don't have an explanation why I am losing many corals, there are many different reasons why that could be, but in 2 years of running a DSB tank I only lost 1 coral.

I had the same problems,going BB.I gave up after close to a year of many deaths,Most corals only lasting a few months.I was running close to 13,000 gph in 125g so dirt was not settling.
I did not cook my rock so i dont know if that was it or not.But i went back to a DSB and new rocks.as much flow as the sand can handle and my tank is thriving again.
I may try BB again because i liked it,but not for 2-5 years

 

[Bomber]

I was running close to 13,000 gph in 125g so dirt was not settling.

Rod were you actually getting it out of there?

I just asking because having flow to keep it stirred up can be worse if you're not getting it out.

 

[wrassie86]

Rod were you actually getting it out of there?

I just asking because having flow to keep it stirred up can be worse if you're not getting it out.

What ever my skimmer did not get, settled out in the sump and would be siphoned a few times a week.I can say my tank stayed pretty clean,
My rocks were old, 8 years before going BB they were in a DSB.My conclusion was they were leaching what ever was killing everything.But who knows.I now kinda wish i had stayed BB with my new rocks.But did not want to take the chance of the same problems happing again.