A thread for supporters of quality high end reef equipment

[Mr. Brooks]

As I was browsing the Lighting Filtration & Other Equipment forum this evening, I noticed something. It seems like the only thing anyone is talking about these days is Chinese built reef equipment. It seems to be the latest fad.

It occurred to me that this new craze for low quality, dirt cheap reef equipment, though easy on the wallet, may not be the best thing for the hobby overall.

I don't want to start a war with supporters of Chinese manufacturers. My intention for posting this thread is to support the quality manufacturers who supply the reef equipment that I feel is necessary to maintaining a worry free reef.

You get what you pay for in this world. So I don't mind paying a little more for customer service, long lasting durability and the knowledge that sweat shops were not used to manufacture the equipment I depend on to keep my reef healthy.

So please, if you'd like to see quality manufacturers survive this recent onslaught of Chinese products, show your support. Post pictures of your quality equipment. Get the word out. When researching a new piece of equipment, ask where it was made. Help the new guys learn that it is better to buy quality once than it is to buy cheap twice.

My reason for posting this thread is quite selfish. I don't want my favorite companies to go out of business. I want to be able to get my hands on quality equipment well into the future. I know how business works in this country. Quality and service isn't cheap. If our hobby begins to favor cheap over quality, there won't be any companies left who can afford to provide the customer service and quality that I enjoy. I've seen it happen in my industry and it's painful to watch.

There are plenty of threads on Reefcentral with plenty of comments on how great people think the cheap Chinese imports are. I'm really not interested in seeing any of that on this thread. Nor do I want to start a battle which will get this thread shut down. I feel that it's almost become taboo to support high end equipment. I want this to be a safe place for others like me. We don't have to make others wrong for us to be right, we can both be right in our own way. So let's keep this thread on track, lets hear from supporters of premium reef equipment. Tell us why you love your Tunze or your Ecotech or your Eheim etc. Let's let the original companies that made this hobby possible know that some of us still appreciate them and want to see them succeed for many years to come.

 

[jimmy n]

harumph!

 

[kikoreefer]

Oh man I would love some tunzes and a 5000 gallon aquarium but like most people I work hard for my money and to support my kids and wife. It would be great to have super high end equipment but I had some korailas that where making my awesome corals suffer after adding my Chinese knockoffs that I could afford I ended up with some fantastic polyp extension and some great movement. It's not that I'm cheap but I need to survive and live a decent life. Go on trips with my kids fishing, go hiking in the mountains and after a long hard day working construction come home to a cold beer and a beautiful reef tank. I'm not saying anything against your comments but people aren't buying Chinese to screw over vortech we are doing it because it's easier to afford and less heartbreaking when it ceases to function.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Oh man I would love some tunzes and a 5000 gallon aquarium but like most people I work hard for my money and to support my kids and wife. It would be great to have super high end equipment but I had some korailas that where making my awesome corals suffer after adding my Chinese knockoffs that I could afford I ended up with some fantastic polyp extension and some great movement. It's not that I'm cheap but I need to survive and live a decent life. Go on trips with my kids fishing, go hiking in the mountains and after a long hard day working construction come home to a cold beer and a beautiful reef tank. I'm not saying anything against your comments but people aren't buying Chinese to screw over vortech we are doing it because it's easier to afford and less heartbreaking when it ceases to function.

I just wanted to post a thread for those of us who want to see reputable brands survive a changing market. I wasn't trying to tell you how you should spend your money.

 

[kikoreefer]

Lol I know man but it's half way insulting by basically insinuating that I'm purchasing a cheap product because I don't care about quality. If most people had there way they would be driving bentleys. I would love a Bentley but it would not be possible for me afford one and live my life. It's like me saying that people have a fad of driving kias but dirt cheap knock off cars are bad for Mercedes we don't want to put land rover out of business. But a lot of us are trying to survive and keep a nice reef not put tunze out of business. It's the way you went about it. just cause you say you don't want people to jab at your thread doesn't mean you will get that it's a public forum with people from all kinds of backgrounds. It's cold blooded like hey poor people your hurting my company tunze over here can you not pay your rent next month and buy a powerhead.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm sorry you feel offended. I didn't mean to insinuate anything. This is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

I can't help it that Chinese companies are putting other companies out of business. I can't help it that the majority of people would prefer to save a buck. But that doesn't mean that I have to like it or keep my mouth shut about preferring to buy a more expensive piece of equipment.

This hobby is not like the auto industry. Word of mouth is everything, and if no one talks about the virtues of reputable companies then eventually they'll disappear.

Please, show your support for the products you choose to buy on another thread. I would like to show my support for the companies that have helped me be successful in this hobby on this thread.

I feel the same way about free music downloads. From my point of view, free music downloads have seriously harmed the music industry. Free music sounded great in the beginning. But it ended up putting a lot of good people out of business. I'm not saying anyone is stealing. I'm just saying we get what we pay for.

 

[estetic]

If the high end companies are actually producing a superior product then they have nothing to worry about. If you are paying a premium for a logo then yes the cheap no name product is going to win out.

Other then the R&D and innovative designs the high end company is still going to source parts and basic manufacturing from the cheapest source...China. QA and assembly may happen in house and not in a 'sweat shop' but the parts more then likely came from the same place.

As far as music is concerned, the industry changed and companies needed to adapt. Piracy put a hurt on record companies bottom dollar, artist never saw a ton of money from corporate album sales. It's like blaming the CD for putting cassette manufactures out of business. Record stores closing up sucks don't get me wrong but it's a different market now. If anything it easier now to get your music out in front of people if you take advantage of the new distribution and promotion channels.

 

[MxReEfEr92]

Oh man I would love some tunzes and a 5000 gallon aquarium but like most people I work hard for my money and to support my kids and wife. It would be great to have super high end equipment but I had some korailas that where making my awesome corals suffer after adding my Chinese knockoffs that I could afford I ended up with some fantastic polyp extension and some great movement. It's not that I'm cheap but I need to survive and live a decent life. Go on trips with my kids fishing, go hiking in the mountains and after a long hard day working construction come home to a cold beer and a beautiful reef tank. I'm not saying anything against your comments but people aren't buying Chinese to screw over vortech we are doing it because it's easier to afford and less heartbreaking when it ceases to function.

I think you are missing the point of this thread... He is not saying that people are purposely trying to screw over quality companies.

I work hard for my money, and as a college student and almost full time aquarium service technician I set my tank up on the cheap. It's been up and running for around 3 years now and I can safely say that I have never been 100% happy with how it overall is set up. I recently purchased a new tank and have realized that since I am already spending so much money I do not want to mess with short customer service and faulty equipment. I want to have long lasting very reputable equipment. For example I was strongly considering an aquamaxx skimmer for my tank. But after talking to friends that use nothing but quality products I was reconsidering to go with a bubble king or ATB. Well just so happens that the new ATB USA headquarters is in my hometown where I was able to go down and talk to the staff about their products. That was it, sealed the deal for me. The fact that my skimmer was guaranteed and that I was invited to come check out the products as astounding customer service.

I do not make very much money but I want the peace of mind that I will have minimal issues with my system. So I have decided to go with high end manufacturers for every single piece of equipment that goes into my new build. These company's include:
Neptune Systems
Tunze
Advanced Acrylics
Ecotech
GEO
NextReef
ATB
And more

My point is, I deal with cheap equipment every day at work and I can not express how much quality products make a difference. Cutting corners will only result in future headaches and frustration, that will lead to spending more money. Using cheaper Chinese equipment will work, and hey could work for a year or two, but why not get something that will last 5+ years and when that piece of equipment needs attention spend a few bucks to get another 5+ years instead of having to replace the entire piece of equipment entirely. I 100% support this thread.

 

[Bpb]

Love the thread. Own none of the gear. If I were a bachelor without a family and a budget, I'd dump my t5s and jaebos and bubble magus in a heartbeat. I'd love to own kessils, radions, and tunzes. I fully believe them to be superior.

 

[kikoreefer]

I didn't say I didn't support this thread I do but reefcentral is open forum so I figured why not express how I feel on the situation. I understand 100% I buy quality when I can and cheap when I can't all I'm saying is I wish I could and I'm also interested in seeing the high end equipment and how it works for people. I know Eco tech vortech make a high end product but I have heard from a lot of friends that they are constantly breaking down. The top I've heard of as far as lasting quality has been tunze. I was only opposed to the way he expressed it which is his right but I felt that maybe he was considering the fact that my kids want to watch a movie my wife wants dinner and I want a powerhead so sometimes you gotta do it besides the point I believe in competition so let them go at it lol

 

[sanababit]

Quality is in the eye of the beholder, lets talk about one piece of equipment for now, i have seen regular gfo reactors sell for as low as 20 dlls and as high as 1000 dlls, come on guys, its just a piece of acrylic with hoses and a cap, some say the acrylic is different i say its BS, its more expensive because they put a freaking sticker on it, and call it deltec or atb or whatever, this goes for skimmers too and pumps, and reverse osmosis etc., i see it all the time, i own a company for 21 years that builds R/O's, i have sold equipment without labels or manufactured for other people and they put their stickers on them and hike up the prices.

Now, there are some companies that make pieces of equipment that have no competition because it is different, like vortechs, altough its a pump, it is a revulotionary piece of equipment, different speed settings, different modes, no cords inside aquarium, great customer service but expensive, you get what you pay for i guess, jeje

So to wrap this up, buy what you can afford, having the best of the best WILL not guarantee that you will have a great tank, i started cheap and have a great tank to prove it

Sana

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I didn't say I didn't support this thread I do but reefcentral is open forum so I figured why not express how I feel on the situation. I understand 100% I buy quality when I can and cheap when I can't all I'm saying is I wish I could and I'm also interested in seeing the high end equipment and how it works for people. I know Eco tech vortech make a high end product but I have heard from a lot of friends that they are constantly breaking down. The top I've heard of as far as lasting quality has been tunze. I was only opposed to the way he expressed it which is his right but I felt that maybe he was considering the fact that my kids want to watch a movie my wife wants dinner and I want a powerhead so sometimes you gotta do it besides the point I believe in competition so let them go at it lol

I'm sorry I expressed my post in such a way as to sound offensive or cold hearted. That wasn't my intention.

 

[kikoreefer]

No it's cool it's hard to sense people intentions in an online post I don't know you and don't know how you are. People's facial expressions and mannerisms play a large role in the way a statement is perceived so I apologize if I was judgmental so moving on what equipment do you use? What's your must have out of your stuff?

 

[moondoggy4]

I have owned and still have Euro reef Skimmers they are made in the US I went to the factory and watched as they were building the CS250 skimmers.
Another company I like is Eheim I have a 2013 canister filter that I used back in 85 and it still works, I had some problem with equipment that I have bought over the years that was out of warranty with no receipt, I spoke with a rep at a reef show and they gave me replacements for free.
Another product I buy lots of is tunze I have little blue boxes all over my garage, they have great customer service.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I own Tunzes and Vortechs. Vortechs are a little bit more fragile but it's the nature of the beast when placing a sheet of glass or acrylic in between a pump. Customer service took care of me immediately in the too cases where I needed help and at no cost to me. I have four running right now. They've all been running for 3 or 4+ years.

My Tunzes are bulletproof. Awesome equipment built in Germany. Love my Streams and Osmolator.

I run an ATB 10.5 Deluxe. Epic skimmer built in Austria. I feel it's been integral to my success in keeping healthy colorful SPS corals. I owned an ASM G4+ which was a piece of junk. Loud pump that kept breaking and bad design that barely pulled skimmate. I owned a Deltec as well but it didn't pull as much as the ATB.

I'm a huge fan of Eheim products, another German company. I own Eheim pumps, heaters and auto-feeders. Never had a problem.

I run Sunlight Supply ballasts and reflectors. Awesome company that had to shut down their aquarium department. Really a shame.

I run Radium bulbs which used to be a German company. Last I heard Coralvue took over the brand. Coralvue is a Chinese company or at least most of the products they sell are Chinese. I've had nothing but nightmares from that company. So far they haven't managed to ruin the Radium brand as far as I can tell.

I just built a new Eheim nano with a Tunze skimmer and a Kessil LED. I love it. I used a bonsai ceramic rock from Cerameco. An American company that sculpts their ceramic rock in house. Very excited to see what they come up with next.

I control my tank with a Neptune controller and I run a Geo calcium reactor. Excellent equipment.

I also run a brilliant RO/DI product from Spectrapure. It wasn't cheap, but I rarely have to change cartridges and it turns itself on and off automatically while saving a ton of water. It's their "ultra high efficiency" RO/DI.

 

[moondoggy4]

I would like to add Sea Swirls to the list, I meet the owners at a reef show, small family run business.
I also have a Lifereef overflow box.
How is the Kessil working over a the eheim tank, I have one of those in my sons room I also have a Kessil laying around also I thought it would be too much for a 8 gallon tank.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

+1 for Sea Swirls. I've talked to the owner as well. Great guy.

So far so good on the Kessil. I have some Favias, Yumas and Ricordias in there and so far they all look great! I have it turned down slightly in intensity. Really beautiful fixture and light output. Very pleased.

 

[Klaus Jansen]

Other then the R&D and innovative designs the high end company is still going to source parts and basic manufacturing from the cheapest source...China. QA and assembly may happen in house and not in a 'sweat shop' but the parts more then likely came from the same place.

Not at all R&D Companys do that..... the only Part what RE ordert from China, are Titanium Screws. Our Company do only one experiences with Chinese Manufacturers ( Red Dragon2 Titanium, made by Honcar) and the Quality was horrible.
R&D, Manufacturing, Production, Raw Materials, Assembling now it´s all *Made in Germany*

best regards... Klaus

 

[Dapg8gt]

Quality is in the eye of the beholder, lets talk about one piece of equipment for now, i have seen regular gfo reactors sell for as low as 20 dlls and as high as 1000 dlls, come on guys, its just a piece of acrylic with hoses and a cap, some say the acrylic is different i say its BS, its more expensive because they put a freaking sticker on it, and call it deltec or atb or whatever, this goes for skimmers too and pumps, and reverse osmosis etc., i see it all the time, i own a company for 21 years that builds R/O's, i have sold equipment without labels or manufactured for other people and they put their stickers on them and hike up the prices.

Now, there are some companies that make pieces of equipment that have no competition because it is different, like vortechs, altough its a pump, it is a revulotionary piece of equipment, different speed settings, different modes, no cords inside aquarium, great customer service but expensive, you get what you pay for i guess, jeje

So to wrap this up, buy what you can afford, having the best of the best WILL not guarantee that you will have a great tank, i started cheap and have a great tank to prove it

Sana

Agree 100%..

Get what you like and support what you like. If you want to think that you have to pay 2k to get a quality skimmer that performs just as well as the $800 one that's your right. But to lump all things lesser priced as "crap" is ridiculous.

I support what I like and I don't feel because I bought a jbj nano cube 13+ years ago (that still works :bounce1 that I am doing any harm to the major players. Quality products sell regardless of how much you pay for them.

I have almost all the products posted as "quality" other than the blatant rip offs and also some of the widely hated ones.

Bottom line imo is it all does the job and if you know what your doing when it comes to husbandry and the basics the equipment for the most part will not make it any better or worse(unless it actually catches on fire like some of the real cheap crap =) . Your tank isn't running any better because you spent a few thousand on a skimmer it's successful because you have the knowledge and drive to keep it that way. And I don't believe anybody is an America hater if you bought a wp 40 or a bubble magnus doser.

I have a feeling this thread will be just like the "knockoff" threads just with the tables turned. How many of those threads started off with "please don't respond with negative comments about my xxxxxxx?

This is just my opinion and not an attack but I can see how people will be offended by the context of this thread. The" my equipment is better than your equipment" and "you are a bad person because of?" never ends civil:deadhorse:

 

[Kolognekoral]

To get back to what this thread is about, there are some companies I feel I can rely upon, even if their product is not absolute top-shelf, I know what I am getting and can decide if this is what I need or not. Of course, this is based on years of experience, something not all of us have. Such is life and there is always a new kid on the block being touted as 'the next big thing'.

In the end, one should attempt to afford the best they can and understand what they need. Over the years I have seen enough crap offered to aquarists by sellers wanting to make a quick buck. Nothing new. It could be made in Europe, USA, China, Japan or the Moon. A sucker is born every day and, statistically, most aquariums land in the garage/cellar after a year. We may not belong to this group, but the industry is much larger than these forums (and we are all a bit crazed, now, aren't we!?)

What do I love? Something that does the job I require. I can get reasonable support when I need it, and this means replacment parts, as well as service. Price is secondary. I would rather go without for a while and purchase the proper piece of equipment, than have to purchase something that keeps me awake at night (and we are not just talking noise).

What I find generally discouraging is the throw-away attitude that has set itself as standard in the last decade. It was cheap, I just get another! As well as some of the ridiculous expectations some have for equipment. Looking for magic bullits. A lot of people have forgotten how to use their heads and think the world is plug and play. How boring! We have more info at our finger tips than ever before (lots of crap info, too), yet many don't want to personally think their plans through. We get side tracked by fashion, whether this is being cheap or expensive. And I get the feeling many have lost their sense of humour thought this whole process.

In the end, we must all make our own decisions and decide what this hobby is worth to us. As we are keeping live animals we do have a responsibility to offer them suitable living conditions. I do get P'ed off when I see aquarists purchasing expensive animals and putting them into tanks that are technically unsuitable. Investment on the wrong side of the equation. Education is priceless. This is such a great hobby and we do need to consider where we invest to make sure it remains so.

I'm glad this thread was started. It does give one pause.