A thread for supporters of quality high end reef equipment

[Mr. Brooks]

Excuse my brevity...

Business 101. Adapt to the market place or get left behind. What the industry is experiencing is just the beginning. Nothing wrong with competition.

Competition is fine when everyone plays by the same rules. Gcarroll touched on an important point that I was trying to get across but failed. He worded it a bit more eloquently. Innovation is expensive. In the past, as a business owner, there was potential reward at the end of the tunnel for being innovative. Now, there's very little point in innovation when an entire country full of billions of people is copying anything and everything they see. Why invest in the cost of getting a company up and running and bringing a new product to market when the minute someone in China notices what you've done they decide to copy your product and sell it at half the cost? Guess which product everyone's going to buy? The one at half the cost of course. And this is AFTER the original company did all the leg work and spent all the money to create a market for it. From my point of view it's unhealthy for the progression of the hobby. Who knows what we might be missing out on.

 

[gcarroll]

What is considered high end?

Well considering your screen name is not ride the "ridetheamericanlifan" I can assume you know the answer to that!

 

[Aslmx]

I think you are missing the point of this thread... He is not saying that people are purposely trying to screw over quality companies.

I work hard for my money, and as a college student and almost full time aquarium service technician I set my tank up on the cheap. It's been up and running for around 3 years now and I can safely say that I have never been 100% happy with how it overall is set up. I recently purchased a new tank and have realized that since I am already spending so much money I do not want to mess with short customer service and faulty equipment. I want to have long lasting very reputable equipment. For example I was strongly considering an aquamaxx skimmer for my tank. But after talking to friends that use nothing but quality products I was reconsidering to go with a bubble king or ATB. Well just so happens that the new ATB USA headquarters is in my hometown where I was able to go down and talk to the staff about their products. That was it, sealed the deal for me. The fact that my skimmer was guaranteed and that I was invited to come check out the products as astounding customer service.

I do not make very much money but I want the peace of mind that I will have minimal issues with my system. So I have decided to go with high end manufacturers for every single piece of equipment that goes into my new build. These company's include:
Neptune Systems
Tunze
Advanced Acrylics
Ecotech
GEO
NextReef
ATB
And more

My point is, I deal with cheap equipment every day at work and I can not express how much quality products make a difference. Cutting corners will only result in future headaches and frustration, that will lead to spending more money. Using cheaper Chinese equipment will work, and hey could work for a year or two, but why not get something that will last 5+ years and when that piece of equipment needs attention spend a few bucks to get another 5+ years instead of having to replace the entire piece of equipment entirely. I 100% support this thread.

yea yea this is a good thread....uhhh is that a cr 250 in your avatar?

 

[phenom5]

I think the real problem is that it is extremely hard to tell the good from the bad until you've had it up and running for a while. There is just such a glut of equipment out there in every price range and from most manufacturers that unless you've already had something for years it's a bit tough to say whether or not it is any good.

Very true. I had a Tunze that ran for the better part of a decade (still does, but my tank is currently dry) with very minimal parts cost. So I bought more Tunze's to replace my Vortechs (which ran for 3+ years without issue, but I wanted something quieter). Who knows, maybe we'll all be talking about the fantastic longevity of the Jeabo pumps 10 years from now. But for me, the proof is in the pudding.

Excuse my brevity...

Business 101. Adapt to the market place or get left behind. What the industry is experiencing is just the beginning. Nothing wrong with competition.

Mr Brooks & GCarroll touched on it, but the simplistic idea that competition is good in the free market, and it forces companies to adapt...assumes that everybody's playing by the same rules. In this case, they are even playing the same game.

 

[Aslmx]

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter where the product comes from, there are good manufacturers and there are bad ones, in China, in Germany and in the US. The fact that your second sentence calls out the Chinese products and your forth says, ...low quality, dirt cheap reef equipment..." tells us what your real point is.

I've got products from companies in the US with good reputations that have been poorly designed or manufactured. And I've got products from China that have been well designed and well built. As somebody said before, just because it's made in the USA and it costs more, doesn't make it better. And the reverse is also true, just because it's made in China and is economically priced, doesn't mean it's junk.

I see Chinese products going through an evolution similar to what Japan went through between the 50's and the 70's. Everybody knew that 'Made in Japan' meant that it was junk. Even the first Honda cars that came to America were junk. But look at them today, and we have to work at keeping up with their quality. And some, not all, probably not even a majority of Chinese companies have seen that to sell in America, or anywhere in the West, means they need to build in better quality. Some are doing it and many still don't. But then not every manufacturer in the US builds quality either.

I think you are afraid of a global market and want to reassure yourself that American made and expensive brands are good and Chinese is bad. You are completely entitled to your opinions, but mine is that the world is passing you by. We are becoming a more and more global economy every day and there is very little chance that that trend will change... no mater how much you want it to. Fight it if you want to, I'll just continue to buy whatever I feel is the best quality vs cost value for my needs.

plus one on here Ron. I'm an electrician and some jobs we must use u.s products and fittings and the ones we had to use we're crap and cost three times as much. I was hurt and ashamed of the quality with a USA sticker on them. By the way I'm typing all of this with my cheap Chinese ipad:uhoh2:

 

[plowro8]

Dagnabbit!!!! I totally forgot to even check and see where my stuff was made... My apologies to America if my stuff's Chinese.

 

[MxReEfEr92]

yea yea this is a good thread....uhhh is that a cr 250 in your avatar?

Yep! All in which had all high end aftermarket parts on lol

 

[sirreal63]

The saddest thing of all is there are people who think the millions of manufacturing jobs lost is a good thing. That moving manufacturing to other countries is healthy for all of us, who think that there are no long term ramifications to losing our manufacturing base. Some of these people are right here on this forum. We are becoming a nation of consumers who do not manufacture what we consume. I have said this many times before, China is not to blame, we are to blame for continuing to buy their products.

Unfortunately this has problem has grown to the point where it is very hard to find anything else.

 

[ridetheducati]

In this case, they are even playing the same game.

I agree totally. The market place is global and business practices are not equal. In the end, companies providing quality products and services will be successful, how they get there can be cut throat.

Sent from a custom built computer using components from Abit, Intel, G.Skill, Samsung, ASUS, Antec, and Microsoft.

 

[Panta rhei]

The saddest thing of all is there are people who think the millions of manufacturing jobs lost is a good thing. That moving manufacturing to other countries is healthy for all of us, who think that there are no long term ramifications to losing our manufacturing base. Some of these people are right here on this forum. We are becoming a nation of consumers who do not manufacture what we consume. I have said this many times before, China is not to blame, we are to blame for continuing to buy their products.

Unfortunately this has problem has grown to the point where it is very hard to find anything else.

This is happening everywhere and is a big issue. So I would say let's support high end products and even more those companies that stay local.

 

[dukduk]

I'd like to see this thread fill up with pics of vertex, elos, and ecotech, etc so I can live through you guys. For me it's jebao, I am saving up my pennies for a pair of kessils

 

[ca1ore]

Every piece of better quality equipment I have ever bought is still in use, every piece of low end equipment is in the garbage, with the exception of the heater but it is only a few years old. If your goal in this hobby is long term, buy equipment designed for long term use. If you do not want to buy it new, look for good quality used equipment. If your goal is just to play around in the hobby or your life is not at a point where you can invest deeply in the hobby then buy the cheap stuff, and hope it lasts as long as you do in this hobby. Rest assured you will be replacing the cheap stuff at some point if you survive in the hobby.

This is the salient point for me!

Although we all look at initial purchase price as our principal cost, one should really evaluate the 'cost' of equipment over the normal lifetime of that equipment and you may actually find that buying 'cheap' doesn't actually save any money over the long-term. For example, I ran an Iwaki pump continuously from 1990 until 2007, at which point I sold my tank and for all I know it may still be running. How many less expensive pumps would I have had to buy in that same period of time? Two, three .... four? If you are in it for the long haul, I believe quality pays for itself.

But, in some cases, it might make sense to buy something cheaper. I have two ReefBreeders LED fixtures at home. I always seem to be changing out my lighting so I figure that even if these fixtures have a shortened useful life, I'm unlikely to know it because I will have moved on to something else.

I will not compromise quality in pumps (particularly the main return pump), heaters or my ATO.

 

[BigAl2007]

I'm all for saving money when it makes sense but that's a far cry from "cheaping out". I'll be the first to agree that brand doesn't garantee a high-end product but fact of the matter there are some companies out there that the brand does stand for high-end products. Ecotech, Iwaki, Elos and GHL (I'm partial to GHL of course) are some of the ones that stand out. Yes you can buy less expensive but more often than not that comes with it's own kind of "price".

Just because someone wants to "invest" in beter equipment that doesn't mean they are bashing less expensive alternatives. The OP merely wanted to start a thread where people who like high-end equipment can post about that and I think that's a GREAT idea. Unfortunately it's being de-railed into a bicker/argument over less expensive equipment vs expensive.

I love my GHL ProfiLux controller (had it almost 6 years now and still going strong) and on my next system I'll penny up and go with the GHL Mitras. Not cheap but IMHO one of the best lighting options available.

 

[BlueFyre]

I think it's a matter of what works for your tank. Everyone's set up is different and everyone's goals are different. My tank has only been set up a year and a half but I am happy with my equipment choices.

I have a pair of tunze powerheads that are so quiet.
I have a reefbreeders light that is still working great
My return pump is an aqueon, still going strong
yet my jager heater is starting to fail and needs to be replaced.

I don't like ecotech's pumps, I think they are too loud and over priced. I do love my tunze though. I have a nice mix of what works for me. Some of that is higher end gear while others are the cheaper route.

 

[sanababit]

Come on guys you talk like high end stuff is the way to go, but they break down too, just go to ther forums, like ecotech, neptune, tunze, etc, and yes they might have great customer service and all, but they still break down, there is no such thing as high end equipment without the possibility of breaking down in the near future, so buy what you can afford, learn the ropes on how to keep your aquarium alive and then If you are still interested in the hobby get yourself the best of the best, just remember this, high end equipment wont guarantee you success in the hobby, like i said, i started cheap, i started with korallias, current power compact light, cyclone skimmer, powersweep powerheads, 2 part dosing, visio heater, and some other equipment which i cant remember their brands, yes i know i have some high end equipment (as its called, lol) but i bought after 3-4 years into the hobby

Sana

 

[ridetheducati]

I will add that if you choose to purchase a "high-end" product, which I am waiting for someone to further define, it does not guarantee a successful system. I can probably purchase hardware from Petco and still have a successful system. The high end equipment is between your ears, not in the LFS.

This hobby has a large transient user base. Check the selling forum, hobbyist getting out and new hobbyist onboarding all the time. For those that have been in hobby 5+ years, you would never recommend a newbie to purchase a 500g tank, Profilux, Tunze, Radions, and a six foot skimmer. A more reasonable recommendation would start with low to moderate range equipment to determine whether the hobbyist is going to enjoy the hobby, and then upgrade equipment when/if required.

I have been in the hobby 20 years and fully understand when it is smart to purchase top tier equipment. I can afford a Bubble King skimmer if I wanted one, but recently purchased a SRO because I understand skimmer technology, limitations and more importantly functionality. Do not get me wrong, I have had several top tier skimmers in the past and can honestly say I am not missing anything. Unfortunately, the neophyte has to find his/her own way.

Nothing wrong with being an equipment junky, you know who you are, but I think the equipment junkies enjoy the equipment more than the animals.

 

[Bpb]

The high end equipment is between your ears, not in the LFS.

This hobby has a large transient user base. Check the selling forum, hobbyist getting out and new hobbyist onboarding all the time. For those that have been in hobby 5+ years, you would never recommend a newbie to purchase a 500g tank, Profilux, Tunze, Radions, and a six foot skimmer. A more reasonable recommendation would start with low to moderate range equipment to determine whether the hobbyist is going to enjoy the hobby...

I love this line of thinking. I couldn't agree more. I'm also a musician an have been for nearly 20 years at a hobbyist/semipro level. I get the question all the time "so and so wants to learn the guitar, what kind should they get?" Or "I new to upgrade to 'this' instrument to improve my sound." That's nonsense. Sound is largely a product of skill and technique, very little to do with the instrument itself. Of course I wouldn't recommend the cheapest instrument a shop offers to a beginner, because it will have inherent manufacturing flaws which will frustrate and discourage the learner (dead frets, poor neck geometry, ect), but at the same time I wouldn't recommend a $2,000 plus guitar because music is difficult to learn and if they can't get the mental side of it down, a nice instrument will be wasted just as quickly as a cheap one.

Seems a bit of a tangent but being a hobbyist on both ends, there is a definite parallel between the assumed "price of gear, to quality of end product" correlation on both reefing and music.

Still...being said, I'd love vortechs, radion pros, and a true 1960s vintage fender lol

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Just because someone wants to "invest" in beter equipment that doesn't mean they are bashing less expensive alternatives. The OP merely wanted to start a thread where people who like high-end equipment can post about that and I think that's a GREAT idea.

This.

 

[solitude127]

Great thread with many valid points. I wonder if the Europeans consider items made in Europe "High End"?

When someone comes to me and ask what hardware to get, I always tell them to get the best that they can afford. If a hobbyist can only afford Koralia's, then that's high end for that hobbyist. I went the "cheap" route when I started and ended up buying ATB, ATI, Ecotech etc.... I'm lucky enough to afford those items and I've been running most of my pieces of hardware for 3+ years now(I think my vortechs are going on 5). Another thing you have to look at is resale value. If you don't like one of the "High End" items, I think you'll have an easier time recouping some of the money. Take a HOB skimmer for example. You'll get very few people who'd buy a used Seaclone skimmer but if you spent a little more in the beginning and bought a Aquamaxx HOB skimmer, you'll get many more people interested in the Aquamaxx.

Also, someone mentioned that all these "high end" items are luxury items. I believe this whole hobby is a luxury and thankfully, I'm fortunate enough to partake in it.

 

[leveldrummer]

Just remember that "Expensive does NOT = Quality"

Just because a pump costs 10x more, does not mean it is made any better then its chinese knockoff doppleganger. It COULD mean that, but paying more doesnt always mean you get a better product.

I agree that in most cases, buying quality and paying what ever it takes to have good equipment is the best plan, but spending 600 dollars on a power head doesnt make that power head any better then paying 60 dollars for one. They both can last the same amount of time. What your really paying for is customer service, and cool features that may never even be used.

Compare this to a Jaguar and a Honda Civic, just because one is cheaper, doesnt mean at all that it isnt a extremly well built and dependable product. Sure the Honda doesnt have WIFI, or TV's in the roof, or leather, etc etc. but you will be able to put 300k miles on it without much maintenance at all, the Jaguar will be a totally different story.

The same goes for ALL products. So far the cheap chinese powerheads seem to be a quality product. Its not a fad, its a high quality AFFORDABLE product.

Does being expensive make a product "high end" or does quality make the product "high end"? Because I think its foolish to support "high end" equipment if only because it cost more.