A thread for supporters of quality high end reef equipment

[Ron Reefman]

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter where the product comes from, there are good manufacturers and there are bad ones, in China, in Germany and in the US. The fact that your second sentence calls out the Chinese products and your forth says, ...low quality, dirt cheap reef equipment..." tells us what your real point is.

I've got products from companies in the US with good reputations that have been poorly designed or manufactured. And I've got products from China that have been well designed and well built. As somebody said before, just because it's made in the USA and it costs more, doesn't make it better. And the reverse is also true, just because it's made in China and is economically priced, doesn't mean it's junk.

I see Chinese products going through an evolution similar to what Japan went through between the 50's and the 70's. Everybody knew that 'Made in Japan' meant that it was junk. Even the first Honda cars that came to America were junk. But look at them today, and we have to work at keeping up with their quality. And some, not all, probably not even a majority of Chinese companies have seen that to sell in America, or anywhere in the West, means they need to build in better quality. Some are doing it and many still don't. But then not every manufacturer in the US builds quality either.

I think you are afraid of a global market and want to reassure yourself that American made and expensive brands are good and Chinese is bad. You are completely entitled to your opinions, but mine is that the world is passing you by. We are becoming a more and more global economy every day and there is very little chance that that trend will change... no mater how much you want it to. Fight it if you want to, I'll just continue to buy whatever I feel is the best quality vs cost value for my needs.

 

[sirreal63]

CoralVue is the U.S. distributor for Radium, I haven't heard that they bought Radium, nor would they because the bulk of Radium's sales are not aquarium bulbs. Radium is a huge company and could probably buy CoralVue with their petty cash fund.

Over the years I have bought a lot of equipment and just like so many I bought a lot of Chinese equipment in my early days. Virtually every piece of low price equipment I have ever bought ended up in the trash. Most of the "high end" equipment on my tank I bought used and every piece is still in use and most of it is European.

Flow: 2-Tunze 6100's that are about 8 years old and a 6060 that is pushing 10. I have spent a total of $7 on parts that I replaced, not ones that failed but parts that should be replaced as maintenance.

Return Pump: Ocean Runner 2500 that I have been using in various functions since 2007. It also powers two TLF150 reactors.

Skimmer: Vertex IN-180 with a Sicce PSK1000, both items bought used. Prior main skimmer was an ASM G3 recirculating that I bought new in 2005. It still works great and has had one impeller replacement.

CaRx Body: MRC H.O.T. 3.5 that I bought used in 2005, still works perfectly with the Eheim 1250 that I bought used in 2004. Last year I converted a NextReef MR1 reactor to a CaRx and used it for about 8 months. I am currently dripping kalk until my alk demand warrants the CaRx.

CaRx gas supply: Milwaukee regulator that I bought new with the Milwaukee pH controller. In 2010 I replaced the needle valve with the Aquarium Plants box and used a MiteyMite peristaltic pump for feed. This is a rock solid setup and will last for many more years.

Kalk Doser: IKS Vario which I bought used in 2012. I am at least the third owner of this little peristaltic pump. I did have to take it apart and clean it and lubricate it. It still runs 24/7/365 and I suspect it will for many more years.

Lights: Currently a single 250 watt Radium driven by an AquaMedic Cube in a LumenMax Large reflector. Prior lights were a pair of LumenArc III Mini's that I bought new in 2006. They were originally 250's but I converted them to 150's. I used these almost continuously since new. I did go with T5's for a while but preferred the MH. I ran the 150's off of a pair of Reeflex Cube's and at times a pair of ARO 175 watt electronics.

Supplement Light: A pair of VHO 75 watt SuperActintics, I bought the ARO ballast that powers them used in 2013, it will last many more years. I also use EcoXotic 445nm LED's, a single Stunner and a single Panorama Pro, I bought these in 2012 and they have worked flawlessly.

RO/DI: A mix of parts, the body is an old Water General I bought in 2005 and is stocked with SpectraPure filters and membranes. The best thing I ever did for water was go with the SP innards. It takes my 240 TDS water down to 0-2 before the DI.

Heater: Currently a Finnex I bought in 2010, the last remaining Chinese product on my tank.

Ozone: Sanders 25 mg/hr unit I bought used in 2005, it is still chugging along doing it's job. It is controlled with a Milwaukee Ozone controller I bought new in 2005.

Every piece of better quality equipment I have ever bought is still in use, every piece of low end equipment is in the garbage, with the exception of the heater but it is only a few years old. If your goal in this hobby is long term, buy equipment designed for long term use. If you do not want to buy it new, look for good quality used equipment. If your goal is just to play around in the hobby or your life is not at a point where you can invest deeply in the hobby then buy the cheap stuff, and hope it lasts as long as you do in this hobby. Rest assured you will be replacing the cheap stuff at some point if you survive in the hobby.

I don't wish to admonish anyone for buying cheaply made products, most people don't understand the difference in quality and crap. Once you do start buying quality it becomes apparent which is made to last and which is disposable. Aquarium equipment is life support equipment, for the most part, and it makes very little sense to cheap out on the items required for the life of your tank. It is a gamble I choose not to make.

 

[jda]

I think that you should be careful not to assume that what is posted on this board is much more than a rounding error in the hobby or industry. The critical mass of hobbyists don't post and most don't even browse. Most of the hobbyists that I have met with presence online are longer term reefers who are probably still using most of what they had long ago and who value stability and quality - most can also afford it. If you can believe the vendors, and I think that you mostly can, they are selling more types of equipment, and high quality of equipment than what most posts on the board tend to indicate.

 

[Allmost]

I am not rich enough to buy cheap equipments.

I have a closet full of low end pumps and skimmers and ... and more than a couple of tanks running with top equipment.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't wish to admonish anyone for buying cheaply made products, most people don't understand the difference in quality and crap. Once you do start buying quality it becomes apparent which is made to last and which is disposable. Aquarium equipment is life support equipment, for the most part, and it makes very little sense to cheap out on the items required for the life of your tank. It is a gamble I choose not to make.

I agree 100% with this statement.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Anyone not buying Elos or Royal Exclusiv items; you're buying crap.

This is pretty much what I consider minimum in aquarium filtration. Anything less and you're a cheap animal torturer who shouldn't be in this hobby.

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/royal-exclusiv-dreambox-complete-10d-set

I kid I kid

Personally, I use a mix of cheap Chinese stuff and some quality parts from all over the world including China. I prefer to waste my hobby money on livestock though.

Btw, American & European companies also make crap, it's not just a Chinese thing. The world's nicest laptops and smartphones are actually made in China.

 

[clay12340]

I think the real problem is that it is extremely hard to tell the good from the bad until you've had it up and running for a while. There is just such a glut of equipment out there in every price range and from most manufacturers that unless you've already had something for years it's a bit tough to say whether or not it is any good.

I've bought a lot of Eheim equipment over the years, and have had mostly really good luck. That said I bought a couple of aquaball pumps for use in little shallow freshwater tanks and they were crap, yet cost three times more than the competitors units. I'd have never expected the problems I had from Eheim based on my previous experience with the brand.

That said I've got basically no reef equipment experience. I'm just trying to find some good pumps/power heads and it's a really painful process atm. Consensus seems to be that everyone loves almost everything when it is working, but trying to find a follow up four or five years down the road is pretty difficult. Not to mention there is never any mention of the maintenance routine/schedule.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

That's why I like to wait a while on new hyped up equipment. Let others post their long term experience. If I needed a return pump tomorrow, I'd rather spend an extra $30 or $40 bucks to buy a pump with a proven track record than a re-branded DC return pump from Jebao. A return pump is the heart of any reef. Sure I'll skimp on a GFO reactor, but on a return pump? No way.

 

[viggen]

I have a pair of vortec mp60's on my display. Yes they did cost a bit more then other options however they are the only option w/o doing a dedicated closed loop that doesn't have bulky motors and power wires going in the tank. Thus my only option....... Took me 6+ months to save up for the pumps

Been using euro reef skimmers for 15+ years and I hope to get a new one (reef dynamics) when I can afford it. Considering the xrc750 or xrc1000 which does cost 2-3x what a comparable Chinese skimmer costs which is why it's going to take me 2-3 years to save up...... Over half way there

Pond use performance pro pumps..... Great stuff

 

[Pastor Salty]

Maybe the high end suppliers should do some re-evaluating in this changing market and realize that their prices are not applicable to today's market.

This coming from a guy with the Kessils and Vortechs

 

[jimmy n]

There is value to certain high end items, but not all of them.

 

[asonitez]

When I buy new equipment, I always do my research. If not much research exists on a particular product I reach out to the manufacturer and ask my questions directly. I even let them know what units in addition to theirs that I'm considering. I let THEM try and sell me on what a product can do for me.

Over the years, I started with cheap equipment and eventually upgraded to name brand equipment as I saved up for it. Truthfully I have the same failure rate with (cheap chinese products and name brand products.) - In many cases the chinese products just sent me a new one.. where-as the (name brand ones) required me to ship products back or pay for expensive replacement parts.

I do not support the Elitest attitude that many people on RC and some other forums adopt. I know people running systems that will put 90% of the people using high end equipment to SHAME using nothing but water changes, a seaclone skimmer and some diy supplements.

I see people everyday dropping bonus checks and tuitions on high end equipment and can't keep Aiptasia alive. I am 80% of husbandry and 20% equipment when it comes to keeping tanks alive and thriving.

That guy using filterbags filled with phosban and carbon that cost him 5 bucks is just as effective as that guy using 2 Dedicated Geo-Reef Reactors that cost like 400.

That guy using some modded maxijets for flow is doing quite alright at a cost below 100 dollars for 4 pumps.. Vs... 800 Dollars for 2 Vortechs...

My point is that high end equipment is a luxury and in some cases a nuisance (Taking a Reactor Offline/Disconnecting Tubes/Rinsing New Media..) vs (Remove bag of carbon, rinse out, add new carbon rinse, in bag.. drop in sump.)

As a responsible reefer, I belive its our job to foster newbies into the hobby. I have NEVER reccomended going straight high equipment for a newbie before explaining the low-tech way of doing things. I always give both aspects and their merits. Also always weigh performance vs cost. My SKIMZ SM201 Skimmer handily outperforms the equivalent Bubble King Skimmer at 1/8th the cost. I know.. because I have them both.

 

[Panta rhei]

Good post Mr. Brooks, imho companies that put quality and why not innovation at first should be supported.
I personally prefer to wait until I have the required money rather then going to the cheaper choice, also to preserve my "investment" in corals and fish.
This does not mean I do not try start-up' products, but anyway quality and cheap are most of the time polar.

 

[dowtish]

This is an excellent thread but it definitely has a lot of variable topics that could be noted. The various equipment out there that is much cheaper but is just as good as the high end equipment seems to fall in catagories of specific equipment. Acrylic can be glued together by anyone, but the question is the thickness, how it is cut and polished, and over all attention to detail. Does a reactor really require a cost of $300 plus? I dont think so. But, does a pump that is made in China that takes weeks to arrive and has virtually no customer service equally perform like a Tunze or Vortech? Maybe....but for how long? And will it be worth it to even consider contacting them when it bites the dust?

You definitely get what you pay for in this hobby along with many other things in life. Are there products out there that are over hyped and carry a higher price tag? Absolutely. But I honestly would rather take my chances with something that has been proven and carries a great reputation, than to try to save a few dollars and just HOPE that it works over time. I made the mistake in the beginning with going the cheap route on a couple of things, and they quickly proved themselves as just what they were...Cheap and unreliable. Money that couldve been put towards something quality. I will say this as well, when you get something that is truly a quality product like a good skimmer, you quickly realize how inferior so many others are. And from that moment on, you wont even consider anything less.

I do not think you MUST have all the high end equipment to have a successful reef tank. As stated above, it has more to do with husbandry than anything else. But if you are not willing to pay for a proper test kit just to save a few bucks, you might need to stop wondering why your corals arent happy.

I currently am running a decent overall steady system with some of the more "high end" equipment, but I did not pay full retail on 95% of it. That is the beauty of a forum or local reef club. There are folks constantly changing or upgrading their equipment.

Here is a list of what I am running on my tank and what I paid for it:

Oceanic Tech Tank 120 gallons- used $400
40B sump with DIY glass baffles- $70
48" Giesmann Spectra with Ice cap ballast-used $400
2 Ecotech MP40's- used $300 for both
SWC 230 Cone Skimmer- used $360
2 Synergy Reef reactors- $120 for both
Tunze Osmolator- used $100
Speedwave DC pump- paid retail $200
Neptune APEX- paid retail $500

So out of all of that I paid retail for 2 pieces of equipment. It also speaks volumes to the fact that all of the equipment that was used have been rocking steady and been completely reliable for 3 years now.

 

[AcroporAddict]

The main thing about China that I don't like is they don't respect any patents or designs, and their courts are puppets for the government, so it is useless to even challenge patent or copyright infringement there.

Their cheap knockoffs are everywhere in all industries. They make design knockoffs of cars (BMW X5 comes to mind) as well as aquarium equipment.

 

[gcarroll]

Great points from everyone here. And I'm talking both sides of this argument. Keep it up!

Without innovation and competition our hobby will remain stagnant. I truly wish that more companies from China would innovate. The lack of innovation truly seems to be the biggest problem I have with the products. If the companies out there would focus on innovating and bringing to market new designs, the hobby would only be better.

The bigger problem is that the reef aquarium equipment industry is a copycat industry. If you are a company that does not innovate you spend very little money in research and development, and can sell the product cheaper. If you are a company that does not advertise you save a ton of money there as well, And can sell the product cheaper. If you are a company that does not support your product you save money there, And can sell your product cheaper. If you are a company that sells direct to the public, you can sell your product cheaper.

There are quality products that are built in China. Quality revolves around the quality assurance measures taken by the company who is marketing the product. Apple has been able to design quality products in the US and then have them built in China and sell them in countries all over the world without discount. In the aquarium industry, the equipment companies are so small they do not have the resources for quality control over a company who was making a product for them.

Here is an example of what is happening in this industry:
Company A designs a product
Company A goes to Company B to build their product
Company A releases the new product to rave reviews
Company B decides to offer the product that they are building for company A to the public direct at the price that company A is paying them to build that product.

I have also seen this happen:
Company A contacts company B to build a product similar to one that company A already builds with some custom design changes.
Company A feels that it is safe to deal with company being since Company B has no plans to be exported its product to the US, so the deal works well for both companies.
Company A begins marketing the product after placing a large order.
After seeing the response and demand for the product that company A is marketing, company B desides to market their product in the US as well.
Company B then delays supplies of Company A's product to focus on supplies of their product.
Company A in the face of increased competition lowers the price of the product.
Company B responds by threatening to cut off supply of Company A's product if they do not increase the price.
Company B then releases a new product using the design changes that Company A made them make on their original product.

There are many other problems in this industry. I can only hope that companies like Tunze, Ecotech, ATI, AI, Royal Exclusive, ATB, and even the Chinese company Maxspect, continue to innovate and bring us new products!

 

[slief]

I'm in and a supporter of high end equipment! My Tunze's have worked flawlessly for 3 years now. My Bubble King Alpha 300 has done so as well. I've never been one to cut corners and as a result my equipment failures over the last 20 + years have been very minimal.

I will not put questionable equipment on or in my tank from questionable manufacturers. I have way to much invested in my tank, livestock and home to be cheap with it and cut corners. One catastrophic pump failure and it could all be gone. One catstrophic power supply failure and my home could be gone. If a manufacturer is going to copy another manufacturers design, they would be considered questionable in my book. If a manufacturer will not support their products, they are questionable in my book. Good quality products are backed by good quality support. This goes well beyond the aquarium industry as well. Being in the computer business, I see plenty of shoddy products with limited to no support and I will never support those kinds of companies. Fact is that many of these shoddy products are made with no legitimate regulatory agency testing and often use bootleg UL labels to make it seem like they are safe when in fact they are not.

I've personally been burned by counterfeit products made in China so I am very leary of many things coming from China, especially if they are a blatent copy of somebody elses products. I won't even get into pumps. Instead, take for example Element Case. They are a US based manufacture of high end CNC machined iPhone and smart phone cases. The real ones are not cheap and can cost in excess of $150 each. Sadly there are Chinese counterfeit versions for under $30. Not only are they inferiour copies but they also use the Element logo and even copy the packaging to prey on peoples ignorance. Buyers who are uneducated think they are getting a great deal when in fact they are getting a cheap peice of crap from a company who is stealing another companies design and taking profits off a reputable companies plate.

As a business owner, that kind of practice really pi$$es me off regardless of whether it's a computer part, case or even a pump. Sadly our society has become such that many could care less about patents and or shady businesses as long as the individual feels they are getting a good deal. I'm not that kind of person and never will be.

So back to the topic of this thread. I support high end products and always will. My aquarium and my home are way to valuable to me to risk not only the lives of my tanks inhabitants but also my home just because I was being thrifty and buying stuff based on cost alone. So for me, quality comes first.

 

[sirreal63]

sadly our society has become such that many couldn't care less about patents and or shady businesses as long as the individual feels they are getting a good deal. I'm not that kind of person and never will be.

+1

 

[ridetheducati]

Excuse my brevity...

Business 101. Adapt to the market place or get left behind. What the industry is experiencing is just the beginning. Nothing wrong with competition.

 

[ridetheducati]

What is considered high end? I tried to support high end today, but I decided to purchase a $5 fish net instead.