Achilles Tang Primer

[DopeCantWin]

My Achilles just went through his second outbreak in my display tank. Now he's just floating along the bottom, yes he's still alive. I assume the ich is impairing his breathing and he's running out of time. With him so slow I could catch him and throw him into a 20 gallon I have with water directly from the display. Then slowly lower it to 1.009 salinity. My display salinity is around 1.024. Is this a good idea, or just let him try and make it in the display? The display is a 210 with 2400 gph turnover from the sump and an mp60 which I've set almost to the top for him. The only fish in the display that could bother him is a Kole Tang, but I haven't seen much any aggression.

 

[Osteopth]

My Achilles just went through his second outbreak in my display tank. Now he's just floating along the bottom, yes he's still alive. I assume the ich is impairing his breathing and he's running out of time. With him so slow I could catch him and throw him into a 20 gallon I have with water directly from the display. Then slowly lower it to 1.009 salinity. My display salinity is around 1.024. Is this a good idea, or just let him try and make it in the display? The display is a 210 with 2400 gph turnover from the sump and an mp60 which I've set almost to the top for him. The only fish in the display that could bother him is a Kole Tang, but I haven't seen much any aggression.

Your display has Ich. I would mix new water to the same salinity and temp, then put him in the 20 or a Rubbermaid tote with an air stone, heater and PVC tubes for hiding. Then use a clear container to transfer him every 3 days to another setup with different equipment. Dry the equipment in between and try to transfer as little water as possible. Ich can only live on a fish for 7 days, then it falls off as a cyst and has to sit on the bottom for 3-28 days while it reproduces. If you dry out the tank before the cysts hatch, they die. Your AT should be disease free in 7 days without copper or hypo.

But he will get reinfected in your DT because your DT will still have it if you don't treat it with copper or hypo, or leave it without fish for at least 6 weeks, I did 12 weeks.

My fish lived in a garbage can with lights, heater and algae scrubber for 12 weeks. I treated them with copper, but that was before I knew about the transfer method. It works. I haven't had a single case of Ich since I left it fallow and started using the transfer method.

Good luck.

 

[Bladez]

This stupid fish!! :deadhorse: I've had mine for 7+/- months and for the last 2 months he has shown no signs of ich. 2 days ago I removed some rock structure from my tank and now all the tangs are showing ich.... Nothing was added to introduce the parasite to my system so I am assuming that the tank remodel caused stress. I'm not too worried yet as everyone is still eating and active but I'm not sure the stress of keeping this thing is worth it... If it dies good reddens and I'll never do it again but if it lives then I guess I've learned a valuable life lesson - avoid sensitive fish!!! :headwally:

 

[Dmorty217]

This stupid fish!! :deadhorse: I've had mine for 7+/- months and for the last 2 months he has shown no signs of ich. 2 days ago I removed some rock structure from my tank and now all the tangs are showing ich.... Nothing was added to introduce the parasite to my system so I am assuming that the tank remodel caused stress. I'm not too worried yet as everyone is still eating and active but I'm not sure the stress of keeping this thing is worth it... If it dies good reddens and I'll never do it again but if it lives then I guess I've learned a valuable life lesson - avoid sensitive fish!!! :headwally:

The problem is the DT has ich and the only way to rid it of that is to go fallow for 8 wks and put all the tangs you have in multiple QTs and start treatment and the wait for the DT to be ich free otherwise you will have this problem off and on as long as the tank is set up

 

[Osteopth]

The problem is the DT has ich and the only way to rid it of that is to go fallow for 8 wks and put all the tangs you have in multiple QTs and start treatment and the wait for the DT to be ich free otherwise you will have this problem off and on as long as the tank is set up

Amen to that! Worst thing to happen to the AT's was this thread starting with the advice, "I put mine straight in the tank with no QT". That's terrible advice for a fish that we know almost always carries Ich. How many entire display tanks have been lost because of that mistake. If you do the transfer method and have a good QT, this fish, and all of your fish, will be Ich free for life. But don't try adding even one fish without proper QT or your AT will get Ich and so will the rest of your DT. Best part is you can get them eating while in QT so that they have an easier time when other fish are around. Start with live macro algae, to nori, then mysis (or mini mysis).

 

[Dmorty217]

Yeah...I'm not sure if it is going to be alive now that it will be like over 36+ hours...after reading all these pages of how difficult it is to keep them. Me too have been on and off on DD to patientently wait for one and now this...bummer...:mad2:

Here is my beauty got him from LA and was eating brine, mysis, and brown ocean nutrition within 2 hrs of acclimation!

 

[tonypittman]

Amen to that! Worst thing to happen to the AT's was this thread starting with the advice, "I put mine straight in the tank with no QT". That's terrible advice for a fish that we know almost always carries Ich. How many entire display tanks have been lost because of that mistake. If you do the transfer method and have a good QT, this fish, and all of your fish, will be Ich free for life. But don't try adding even one fish without proper QT or your AT will get Ich and so will the rest of your DT. Best part is you can get them eating while in QT so that they have an easier time when other fish are around. Start with live macro algae, to nori, then mysis (or mini mysis).

I have asked multiple industry experts about this, and they all have the same counseling. "Ich free" is a mythical utopia. 99.9999% of systems have ich. The goal is really to tip the balance so far in your fishes' favor that they ward off major outbreaks and live healthy lives.

Yes, QT is one way to tip the balance. Good diets and top-notch water quality also help. Avoiding highly susceptible fish is yet another.

However, having done the 8-12 week fallow DT and copper treatments, I can tell you that the likelihood at you will COMPLETELY rid a system of ich is low...very.

 

[Dmorty217]

I have asked multiple industry experts about this, and they all have the same counseling. "Ich free" is a mythical utopia. 99.9999% of systems have ich. The goal is really to tip the balance so far in your fishes' favor that they ward off major outbreaks and live healthy lives.

Yes, QT is one way to tip the balance. Good diets and top-notch water quality also help. Avoiding highly susceptible fish is yet another.

However, having done the 8-12 week fallow DT and copper treatments, I can tell you that the likelihood at you will COMPLETELY rid a system of ich is low...very.

Well I'm in the .00001% then. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have ich fre tanks too. Ich isn't just something you keep dealing with everytime you turn around and it's popping up again:headwalls:

 

[DopeCantWin]

Well I'm in the .00001% then. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have ich fre tanks too. Ich isn't just something you keep dealing with everytime you turn around and it's popping up again:headwalls:

I guess we'll find out after you add him to your tank. Based on my reading, these fish get ich so quickly and easily it's scary.

 

[tonypittman]

Well I'm in the .00001% then. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have ich fre tanks too. Ich isn't just something you keep dealing with everytime you turn around and it's popping up again:headwalls:

You could be in that extremely lucky group. But, very highly doubtful. More than likely you have done a good job of tipping the balance in favor of your fish. So, ich isn't able to make a strong showing in your system. That's good. Congrats! Odds are very high that it is there though. Just a fact.

Like cancer in humans, it's always in our systems. When healthy, most of us fend it off for extended periods. Healthy lifestyles and carcinogen-free environments help tip the balance our way. But, no way to guarantee cancer -free existence. (Yes, I know ich is a parasite and cancer is not....just a rough example to make the point.)

 

[DopeCantWin]

You could be in that extremely lucky group. But, very highly doubtful. More than likely you have done a good job of tipping the balance in favor of your fish. So, ich isn't able to make a strong showing in your system. That's good. Congrats! Odds are very high that it is there though. Just a fact.

Like cancer in humans, it's always in our systems. When healthy, most of us fend it off for extended periods. Healthy lifestyles and carcinogen-free environments help tip the balance our way. But, no way to guarantee cancer -free existence. (Yes, I know ich is a parasite and cancer is not....just a rough example to make the point.)

Do you have a link to one of these experts?

 

[tonypittman]

Do you have a link to one of these experts?

Research or ask any of the well known expert aquarists on the circuit. Don't just go by "Forum Myths". In all practicality, it is about keeping the parasite presence latent through solid practices of quarantine, tank maintenance, and (when necessary) quick treatment. If you want to chase the myth, go ahead. I once did...Or you can skip that madness.

Bob Fenner has written loads on the subject. A quote:

"In actual fact cysts of Cryptocaryon can stay viable for a few to several months, hence ultraviolet sterilization, use of biological cleaners, allowing systems to go fallow... only decreases the number and virulence of these parasites. Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."

I had a chance to meet him a couple of weeks ago, and I asked him more about this. We shared a laugh when I told him about my recent attempts to pull all of my fish out of the tank, wait 8-12 weeks, and go forward "ich-free". The words of wisdom rang true: it's a constant fight to keep the balance in favor of the fishes. 99.999% of aquarists who claim to be "ich-free" are really succeeding at tipping the balance in the right direction. This is a good and admirable achievement, of course. But, those who achieve this, then add an Achilles tang should not gasp in utter dismay when the ich re-appears after an environmental change.

Please note...I have nothing to win or lose here. I've been around the block with many strategies and tactics for years on this. Just trying to share what the experts already know to be true.

If you go for very sensitive fish, such as the Achilles Tang, you are in for a tough balancing act. You have to REALLY tip the balance toward the fishes, or you will deal with ich. On the other hand, if you stick to hardier fish, such as clowns, you can get away with an easier balance. It is possible to have an "ich outbreak free" tank.

 

[loup]

My achilles must be lucky SOB to be in the 0.001% ich free tank.

 

[tonypittman]

My achilles must be lucky SOB to be in the 0.001% ich free tank.

I guess I should quit because heads are apparently closed on the point.

Because your fishes show no outward signs of ich does NOT mean you have an ich-free tank.
It's nothing personal,really. It's just a point of fact.

 

[tonypittman]

Well I'm in the .00001% then. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have ich fre tanks too. Ich isn't just something you keep dealing with everytime you turn around and it's popping up again:headwalls:

You are so sure about this, and are equally sure that they have not established a favorable environment for their fish, preventing the parasite from becoming virulent?

The point of this thread is the Achilles Tang. I'll just say this....balance is key. If you want to keep this gem of a fish, realize that ODDS ARE you do not, and will not, have the mythical "ich free" tank. So, you really need to focus on having an "ich outbreak free" tank, which means you need to be prepared to do everything possible to tilt the table in the favor of your prized fish. This is certainly possible.

 

[Osteopth]

You can reintroduce Ich any time you add water from another tank, but careful QT and coral dipping will usually keep your DT Ich free. Mine is and I love it. Hard lesson learned, just sorry I had to lose some beautiful fish before I woke up.

 

[reef80]

I personally think that most peoples.fish probably died from parasites like velvet flutes andor brook and ick also attack cuzz the immune system is weak whenn all these blood sucking parasites attack...as result causing people to think it was the ick that killed it. I get ick on my tang occasion esp my blue tang but they always disappear in a few days and only a few spots. I now jus uograde to a 210 from a 140. I know for sure my 140 has ick...however i just acquired a archiilis and will now put him to the test. So far day 3 and hes eatting like a champ with no white spots...knock on wood...ill keep everyone posted...i too believe that most if not all tank has ick...but good husbandry and immunity stops outbreak. I just helped a friend qt a small hippo blue tang in a 10 gallon. Week 2 it was literally covered in white spots but good feeding and good water pars helped it to fight it. Hes now as spotless and shinning as ever. My friend wanted me to copper the poor guys...well i won the bet...and the qt water came from my display tank too...good luck ya!

 

[roni]

I guess I should quit because heads are apparently closed on the point.

Because your fishes show no outward signs of ich does NOT mean you have an ich-free tank.
It's nothing personal,really. It's just a point of fact.

I'm with you.

Basically, despite over a century of research, our understanding of human virulent agents is still limited...I'd imagine our understanding of marine fish physiology isn't fully fleshed out either.

There is no real double blinded hypothesis driven research in this area and I think it's a fallacy to assume that because you have never seen "ich" in your system, that it's not normal fauna in a healthy system.

Personally, I think that a lot of the deaths attributed to ich are secondary to a primary immune compromise, either from another organism, poor nutrition, stress of shipping or fighting with other fish, etc.

I do think that strict quarantine is the best route to go and I don't advocate just throwing a fish in. I will say that I've seen ich in a person's system who is one of the strictest adherents to quarantine I've ever met. He said it would pop up from time to time but never anything other then a couple spots on a PBT hybrid.

 

[Reefnub]

Here's my Achilles, he needs to go on a diet.

 

[wayne_sreef]

Here is my achilles along with some other tangs. He is almost a year old in my tank. Sorry, for the bad quality of the video. I took it with Iphone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LOmo3NWOf8