Acro Color

[victorcan]

I think it may be a light issue. Stop giving back your corals!

How close are the acros to the lights.? My milipora browned out when I put it in and one month later, it is red again.

How long have you had the acros?

How long has the tank been up?

Can we see a picture?

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I know I hate giving back corals!
The acro in question Which there is one main piece and a smaller frag of the same genus) browned out about 18-20" down from the light right now.. I had it like 8" for like 3 months but thought I was too close and possibly bleaching?? so I dropped it down about a month ago.. the tank has been established for about 8 months now.
I have a picture in my Picassa photo album

https://picasaweb.google.com/vcanastraro/RecentlyUpdated?authkey=Gv1sRgCP6t7JqB3NW-Qg#

I think he (tmz) means gorgonians in a plural sense ,then, Iodide maybe worth supplementing.
Water changes help maintain Iodide,food especially marine algae like Nori also add Iodide.I dont test for it but have in the past and really didn't notice any difference.Tend to look at others tanks who have regularly grownout frags of gorgonians without supplementing in a chemical form.Many in this forum that dont dose it have had good results.
From everything Ive read,its seams (other than certain marine algae and gorgonians)its used to make toxic deterants and growth inhibiting compounds by marine algaes ,sponges and others. Not something I want to influence in my tank.Just my opinion.
Just saying you might want to look at the overall picture before deciding to add it.Good luck with what ever you decide.

I was primarly using the iodine for the leathers so I will be discontinuing it now that they are gone and see what happens in a couple months time... Hopefully that was the problem ?
As stated I do routine water changes 2-3 weeks apart and replenish with only 1 salt (oceanic) Thanks for your inputs Anything is worth trying at this point..

One other thing that may or may not be the problem.. I have recieved conflicting answered and read just as many reviews regarding glue for fragging.. I have prodominatly used "origional super Glue" and was used on the acro's in question. Any thoughts on the glues I picked up someBSI IC-Gel from a friend (thanks Travis) and will be using that from here on out? But could super glue be the issue?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

But could super glue be the issue?

no

 

[Eastamherstbias]

What kind of salt do you use?

How often do you do water changes?

 

[victorcan]

Nothing but Oceanic every 2-3 weeks 30Gallons 1/5 of 150 gallon tank
I really need to get my wall plumbed to my 125 in the basement as new fuge/sump

 

[tmz]

The glues you noted are all cyanoacrylate. No real difference other than density. Any superglue gel is fine.

 

[victorcan]

well that relieving

 

[victorcan]

Well just a glimmer of hope here 6 days no leathers in the water and my acro is showing signs of its color returning.. HAs gone from litterally brown to a hint of flourecent green showing
I did raise my DKH from 7.4 to 8.6 so not sure if thats a contributing factor or not but regardless I am seeing shades of its origional beauty returning Lets hope it fiully returns time will tell.

 

[Gravesj1s]

I think alk and lighting.
From your pics (#56) on the back wall of your glass the coralline shows spots with the centers are missing instead of being solid.Ive noticed in my tank this happens when alk was low.

Maybe its just me but your pics look more like bleaching going on than browning.If they were bleached first and then browned ,I think that would indicate its improving especially since your starting to see hints of color.

 

[victorcan]

So let me get this straight.... Natural Seawater is 7-8 DKH Ive kept a stable 7.6 for months now but it should be where ? Whats the perfect zone? Ive boosted it up to almost 9 and can keep going is 10-11 good is 12 too high? And why do all the other corals look so good do acros just demand a higher alk?

 

[Eastamherstbias]

I agree with Graves. I know you are making a bunch of changes but maybe just let every thing be for a month and it will come around? I have never had to play with chemistry like you have but you don't want to stress the rest of the corals with all of these fluctuations. The best thing I ever bought was a GFO reactor.

 

[tmz]

Alkalinity in the range 7 to 11 dkh is fine . nsw is 50ppm/2.5meql/7dkh.
Acros do not demand higher ph but are more sensitive to swings and low alk than other corals,ime. Many keep it higher than 7 to be sure it doesn't go lower than that as it is consumed via calcium carbonate precipitation. Higher alk generally accelerates growth since it increases calcium carbonate precipitation which is the process coral's use to lay out skeletal mass. Changes in alk should be made slowly.It should be kept steady.

PO4 at higher levels( say over .15ppm will interfere with calcification(calcium carbonate precipitation) as will low alkalinity.

 

[victorcan]

I agree with Graves. I know you are making a bunch of changes but maybe just let every thing be for a month and it will come around? I have never had to play with chemistry like you have but you don't want to stress the rest of the corals with all of these fluctuations. The best thing I ever bought was a GFO reactor.

I have a Carbon reactor that I use to run GFO from time to time just not daily. I have actually not really had any probs w/ phosphates I fortunately.. But i think your right Historically whenever I do too much to fix a minor thing it causes in turn a major thing to go wrong so slowwwww..

Alkalinity in the range 7 to 11 dkh is fine . nsw is 50ppm/2.5meql/7dkh.
Acros do not demand higher ph but are more sensitive to swings and low alk than other corals,ime. Many keep it higher than 7 to be sure it doesn't go lower than that as it is consumed via calcium carbonate precipitation. Higher alk generally accelerates growth since it increases calcium carbonate precipitation which is the process coral's use to lay out skeletal mass. Changes in alk should be made slowly.It should be kept steady.

PO4 at higher levels( say over .15ppm will interfere with calcification(calcium carbonate precipitation) as will low alkalinity.

Well we learn something new everyday well at least I just did..I was unaware higher alk "promoted growth" Sometimes I wonder where my head is at thats like elementary or at least after seeing it out there lol
So Like 11 DKH is prime then or??

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

"prime" alkalinity

"prime" alkalinity

there is no "prime" alkalinity.

What is optimal in any one particular situation depends on other factors: S.G., Ca, pH, nutrient levels etc.

 

[cardiffgiant]

Agreed, 100%.

With my nutrient level and maintenance routine, I experience the best results with Kh between 8.3-8.6 (salifert test), with Ca at 420-425 and Mg around 1300. I've had poor results whenever my Kh goes above 9 or below 8.

That's just my experience. I believe that observation, patience, and trial/ error will help you find a level that's right for your system.

 

[tmz]

Tanks and aquarists for that matter are idiosyncratic. That's why ranges are offered instead of exact numbers. They are: dkh 7to11(nsw 7), calcium 350ppm to 450ppm(nsw 420) and magnesium 1250 to 1400ppm(nsw 1280).
FWIW, mine run: dkh 9.6, calcium 500ppm, magnesium 1480 with PO4 of ,0.04ppm and salinity of l.026.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

in addition to what Tom just posted

in addition to what Tom just posted

coral coloration is subjective.

How many times have I heard that a bleached/stressed Acropora looks beautiful!

-OR-

a healthy Acropora isn't very colorful.

TIP: you can usually make Acropora coloration "better" by simply doing nothing more than frequent water changes

 

[Gravesj1s]

The kh value of 7.6 you maintained is within range as you noted but its also very close to the lower end of the margin.

From what the others are mentioning about alk being more tank related to what works or seamingly works best might relate to test kits themselves.Its possible you did everything right per your testkit with it testing in the proper nsw range.

I recall a thread in the chem forum where ~Habit~(makers of salifert)~ boomber~ and some of the other chem wizards put some explanation to why some reeftanks do better at differnt alk. sorry dude, I dont have a link or even a thread title but Ill see if I can find it.
Anyway ,from that discussion the points focused on how alk testkits could be skewed depending on things like sand in the watercolumn ,limewater additions and any of the other 2 part additives.The titration in alk/kh kits involves using acid and anything carbonate based can /does neutralize acids whitch we all know. this could be ,or partly explain why a kh/alk level seemingly works better for one tank and not another.

Its possible that the 7.6kh value you gave was actually lower.-Just a thought.

For me,mine comes in similar to what cardiff-posted 8.3-8.6 (dkh),Ca 420ppm & Mg 1500ppm using reefcrystals salt.Using just limewater for all evaporation.The 8.3-6 kh is just where it falls and not really of any sort of plan.I think going below a dkh of 8 is getting into a risk area for the reasons above and less for any margin of error.
Just some thoughts ,wish you the best with your tank-Steve

 

[tmz]

It's difficult to get an absolute measure of alkalinity with hobby grade equipment. Then when it's all said and done it's only a surrogate measure for carbonate alkalinity used by calcareous organisms like corals, snails, etc. Carbonate alkalinity is about about 96% of total alkalinity in sea water but may vary in our tanks if we use a salt mix or buffer that varies such as one with high borate as an example or for some other reason. Alkalinity is not a thing it is many things that have the potential to adsorb H protons and thus neutralize acids. They are: PO4(phosphate),HPO4(hydrogen phosphate), B(OH)4-(Tetrahydroxborate),MgOH+(magnesium) hydroxide),OH-(hydroxide) and the ones of primary interest CO3(carbonate) and HCO3(bicarboante)

 

[victorcan]

coral coloration is subjective.

How many times have I heard that a bleached/stressed Acropora looks beautiful!

-OR-

a healthy Acropora isn't very colorful.

TIP: you can usually make Acropora coloration "better" by simply doing nothing more than frequent water changes

I do a 35% water change every 2-3 weeks, complete syphon of the gravel I really try to have regular maintanance.. I got a starter package from BRS of 1 gallon each kalk, calcium chloride, sodium bicarb, and mag chloride.. Up untill a week ago I had no need for the sodium bicarb, but have recently drip dosed it to get my alk up to a steady 9.6dkh Im hoping it maintains with the kalk 3x weekly.. I have never had to dose the mag as I'm always a steady 1450-1500ppm Calcium is always high around 500ppm so the calcium sits full and never used, should i be using it for anything else??

The kh value of 7.6 you maintained is within range as you noted but its also very close to the lower end of the margin.

From what the others are mentioning about alk being more tank related to what works or seamingly works best might relate to test kits themselves.Its possible you did everything right per your testkit with it testing in the proper nsw range.

I recall a thread in the chem forum where ~Habit~(makers of salifert)~ boomber~ and some of the other chem wizards put some explanation to why some reeftanks do better at differnt alk. sorry dude, I dont have a link or even a thread title but Ill see if I can find it.
Anyway ,from that discussion the points focused on how alk testkits could be skewed depending on things like sand in the watercolumn ,limewater :bounce2:all know. this could be ,or partly explain why a kh/alk level seemingly works better for one tank and not another.

Its possible that the 7.6kh value you gave was actually lower.-Just a thought.

For me,mine comes in similar to what cardiff-posted 8.3-8.6 (dkh),Ca 420ppm & Mg 1500ppm using reefcrystals salt.Using just limewater for all evaporation.The 8.3-6 kh is just where it falls and not really of any sort of plan.I think going below a dkh of 8 is getting into a risk area for the reasons above and less for any margin of error.
Just some thoughts ,wish you the best with your tank-Steve

Thanks Steve... If you do find that thread please send me a link.. I changed a couple things in the last 7-10 days and not sure which was the item that helped but the color is deffinatly comming back been totally brown for 3-4 months and since getting roid of the leathers and raising the alk and changing the light times it is getting green again...

It's difficult to get an absolute measure of alkalinity with hobby grade equipment. Then when it's all said and done it's only a surrogate measure for carbonate alkalinity used by calcareous organisms like corals, snails, etc. Carbonate alkalinity is about about 96% of total alkalinity in sea water but may vary in our tanks if we use a salt mix or buffer that varies such as one with high borate as an example or for some other reason. Alkalinity is not a thing it is many things that have the potential to adsorb H protons and thus neutralize acids. They are: PO4(phosphate),HPO4(hydrogen phosphate), B(OH)4-(Tetrahydroxborate),MgOH+(magnesium) hydroxide),OH-(hydroxide) and the ones of primary interest CO3(carbonate) and HCO3(bicarboante)

What are you using to guage your alk tom? Do you have a better tool? I heard you had a par meter too, any chance I could borrow it or lure you over to help me out Were you a biologist, chemist, or something? you always have the most technical post Ive seen anywhere Thankyou for all your help, all of you its working like anything in this hobby slowly but prtogress can be seen..:celeb3:

 

[tmz]

I do not have a par meter. I have a lux meter but misplaced it. I know it will turn up one day.
I use a salifert alk test kit and cross check it with an api test kit.

I only dose kalk and occassionaly some baking soda and baked baking soda, so I'm not adding other than carbonate alk except for whatever comes in with the salt mix and the Coralife salt which I use and others like RC and IO do not contain disproportionate amounts of borate, etc. as somesalt mixes like Seachem salt do.

There is no practical way to sort out the alk elements in a sample. The Seachem test will give you total alk and carbonate alk though but I haven't used that in years.

I am not a chemist or microbiologist.

I have a Master of Science degree in Public Adminsitration with a concentration in health care and a Bachelor of Arts with a major in Political Science. After 3 years in Army Intelligence(1967 to 70) , I worked for over 30 in New York State government in various positions including as the Director of the NYS Developmental Disabilities Service Office for Western New York including The West Seneca Developmental Center.
I have spent the 8 yrs of my retirement studying and practicing the hard sciences as they relate to reefkeeping.It's nice to know you can still learn something even when you are older and I try to do that everyday.