AEFW: In-Tank Whoopin
- Thread starter jda
- Start date
Laser Lammons
New member
It has now been done successfully in the states!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2464227
JPMagyar
New member
You'd think I would listen to my own advice: Be patient and always "measure twice before cutting once". Anyways, I did neither. Last Thursday I decided to begin a Levamisole regimen to treat my tank. Rather than going back to the original post I looked at Aqualund's post above where he said:
And then worked backwards to say that would equal 2 tsps per 500 gallons or for me 3 teaspoons for 750 gallons. I did not check to see that the original recipe was for the equivalent of 1 tsp per 333 gallons:
500/1.5= 333 1 gallon doses so 1 tsp treats 333 gallons and I was planning 1 tsp per 250 gallons, BUT here's where it gets interesting and I'm not even sure what I was thinking, but I did it anyway.
This all happened on Thursday Dec. 11th. First I dissolved 3 tsps of Prohibit in 1 liter of tank water. Next I dumped ALL the solution into my display tank that has 240 gallons of volume. That was around 2PM in the afternoon. Before you all groan in dismay let me cut to the chase by saying I didn't lose anything except pods, worms, and snails BUT the reef was NOT happy for the next 24 hours.
As soon as I dumped the solution into the reef all the fish hid and started breathing fast. Within seconds the water was full of amphipods floating around dead and soon after several flatworms started to appear floating around in the water. Shortly after that a couple bristleworms crawled out of the sand and flipped over dead. Next my sand sifting snails came up for air. They didn't die but they came out of the sand. Lastly my turbo snails started dropping off the walls. Not all of them but probably about 1/3 of my 40 or so snails. Of those that fell some recovered the next day and some did not. Lastly a couple of my SPS started to slime ever so slightly.
I went into full panic mode. I'm thinking I just killed my entire reef. Suddenly I felt like the dumbest reefer on the planet. I did, however, remain calm even though my guts were twisted up in a bunch. I came up with a plan. 1) Leave the carbon running and the skimmer turned on. 2) Wait four hours for the mixture to be 100% circulated in my entire system and then do a 50% water change. 3) Remove and replace my carbon (2 cups) on the next morning. 4) Do another water change the following day of my standard 20% amount. (That would be 48 hours after the dose).
So I did all that (sort of . . . see my tank thread for the outrageous details of what happened the next morning that is unrelated to this thread). The corals stopped sliming after the 50% water change which I did at 6 PM that evening. The fish did not eat the first night or the morning after. The following evening after the 50% water change and running fresh carbon for 12 hours most of the fish were back out and eating except for my Hippo Tangs that hid for another day. By 48 hours after the initial dose all appeared normal.
Today I am feeding my corals amino acids and Reef Snow because I am assuming with the massive die off of pods I have lost a great deal of biodiversity. My next task is to setup a separate QT tank and try to stock it with fresh bought premium live rock and macro algae in the hopes of building a new pod population. I plan a second dose of levamisole using the 1 tsp per 333 gallon recipe and this time I will distribute it evenly throughout my system. My system is slightly unusual in that I was able to dose such a heavy amount into the display and then the normal circulation immediately started diluting the dose to the "normal" amount. My display tank has a turnover of about 2 times per hour. The two observations I would make were that the existing AEFW poplulation seemed to immdediately die and their bodies even dissolved and the reef seems to have survived even though everyone from fish to coral was clearly heavily distressed at first.
I do not recommend this technique be copied by anyone because I can't say how close I was to losing it all, but I can say the reef was under very bad stress. Now the question is will the AEFWs reappear?
Anyways, there's my story. Standby for more in the coming weeks.
And then worked backwards to say that would equal 2 tsps per 500 gallons or for me 3 teaspoons for 750 gallons. I did not check to see that the original recipe was for the equivalent of 1 tsp per 333 gallons:
500/1.5= 333 1 gallon doses so 1 tsp treats 333 gallons and I was planning 1 tsp per 250 gallons, BUT here's where it gets interesting and I'm not even sure what I was thinking, but I did it anyway.
This all happened on Thursday Dec. 11th. First I dissolved 3 tsps of Prohibit in 1 liter of tank water. Next I dumped ALL the solution into my display tank that has 240 gallons of volume. That was around 2PM in the afternoon. Before you all groan in dismay let me cut to the chase by saying I didn't lose anything except pods, worms, and snails BUT the reef was NOT happy for the next 24 hours.
As soon as I dumped the solution into the reef all the fish hid and started breathing fast. Within seconds the water was full of amphipods floating around dead and soon after several flatworms started to appear floating around in the water. Shortly after that a couple bristleworms crawled out of the sand and flipped over dead. Next my sand sifting snails came up for air. They didn't die but they came out of the sand. Lastly my turbo snails started dropping off the walls. Not all of them but probably about 1/3 of my 40 or so snails. Of those that fell some recovered the next day and some did not. Lastly a couple of my SPS started to slime ever so slightly.
I went into full panic mode. I'm thinking I just killed my entire reef. Suddenly I felt like the dumbest reefer on the planet. I did, however, remain calm even though my guts were twisted up in a bunch. I came up with a plan. 1) Leave the carbon running and the skimmer turned on. 2) Wait four hours for the mixture to be 100% circulated in my entire system and then do a 50% water change. 3) Remove and replace my carbon (2 cups) on the next morning. 4) Do another water change the following day of my standard 20% amount. (That would be 48 hours after the dose).
So I did all that (sort of . . . see my tank thread for the outrageous details of what happened the next morning that is unrelated to this thread). The corals stopped sliming after the 50% water change which I did at 6 PM that evening. The fish did not eat the first night or the morning after. The following evening after the 50% water change and running fresh carbon for 12 hours most of the fish were back out and eating except for my Hippo Tangs that hid for another day. By 48 hours after the initial dose all appeared normal.
Today I am feeding my corals amino acids and Reef Snow because I am assuming with the massive die off of pods I have lost a great deal of biodiversity. My next task is to setup a separate QT tank and try to stock it with fresh bought premium live rock and macro algae in the hopes of building a new pod population. I plan a second dose of levamisole using the 1 tsp per 333 gallon recipe and this time I will distribute it evenly throughout my system. My system is slightly unusual in that I was able to dose such a heavy amount into the display and then the normal circulation immediately started diluting the dose to the "normal" amount. My display tank has a turnover of about 2 times per hour. The two observations I would make were that the existing AEFW poplulation seemed to immdediately die and their bodies even dissolved and the reef seems to have survived even though everyone from fish to coral was clearly heavily distressed at first.
I do not recommend this technique be copied by anyone because I can't say how close I was to losing it all, but I can say the reef was under very bad stress. Now the question is will the AEFWs reappear?
Anyways, there's my story. Standby for more in the coming weeks.
Last edited:
So you were 4.16x the dose? Glad that it worked out, for now. I have gone to 2x the dose just fine, but that was in later treatments. My feeling is that the first treatment needs to be on the smaller side for the initial die off.
My theory is that whatever you killed with the dose is what ****ed the fish/corals off, not the med. I don't just mean the AEFW, but also the bristles and who-knows-what-other-kinds-of-worms-and-fauna in the tank. If my theory is right, the next dose should be easier since that stuff was already dead.
I think that 4x the dose would have killed the pods and snails at any time. I don't think that the fish would have known that anything was in the tank if no worm toxins were around.
I typically do have several carbon reactors ready for fast clean up on my 350G system. I usually drop one in the sump and one on the display. I have a third handy just-in-case.
If I had to guess, the eggs will still probably hatch. You should consider dosing again if everything looks good after a while.
My pods came back in that tank pretty quickly. I also still have pods after I treated the whole system... quite a few. You could drop a bag of pods in there when you are all done.
Please keep us posted.
My theory is that whatever you killed with the dose is what ****ed the fish/corals off, not the med. I don't just mean the AEFW, but also the bristles and who-knows-what-other-kinds-of-worms-and-fauna in the tank. If my theory is right, the next dose should be easier since that stuff was already dead.
I think that 4x the dose would have killed the pods and snails at any time. I don't think that the fish would have known that anything was in the tank if no worm toxins were around.
I typically do have several carbon reactors ready for fast clean up on my 350G system. I usually drop one in the sump and one on the display. I have a third handy just-in-case.
If I had to guess, the eggs will still probably hatch. You should consider dosing again if everything looks good after a while.
My pods came back in that tank pretty quickly. I also still have pods after I treated the whole system... quite a few. You could drop a bag of pods in there when you are all done.
Please keep us posted.
JPMagyar
New member
So I'm just going to do some thinking out loud on this thread. I realize that there have been multiple threads all having the same hope of solving this problem. Here are my thoughts at the moment . . . I'd love to hear comments on what I'm thinking.
treatment timing - These things take 21 days to hatch so lets say the maximum range is 28 days. This means if you treat and a worm lays eggs that day then even if you do 4 weekly treatments you may have a hatch right after your last treatment. Worse still if these treatments are only 90% effective then you may have a worm live until the next treatment and then lay an egg which would push the treatment out another 4 weeks from that day. My point is I think for any treatment to work it needs to have 100% kill rate. This got me thinking that maintaining a constant low dosage in the reef may be a possible answer, but I have no idea how long the levamisole molecule lasts in a reef. In the human body it has a half life of only 3 to 4 hours. I'm considering trying a daily treatment of low dosage in a separate tank.
Anyways that's it for now.
By the way found the link to this paper.
Taxonomy and Life History of AEFW
I paid for it so feel free to ask questions. The summary in the abstract has all the relevant info.
Adults lay 20-26 eggs. Eggs take about 21 days to hatch. Each egg has up to 3 embryos. The hatchlings can swim, but prefer to just settle where they are. The adults seem to only lay eggs on skeletal remains and never on living tissue. They did not discuss how long the worms lived or how soon after hatching they were able to breed. They did show that reproduction is sexual with a male and a female worm being necessary, and they did discuss the fact that these worms seem to come out of the egg fully formed so it is likely they can breed right away although they indicated a need to study this further to determine whether there was another metamorphic stage in the life cycle of the worm.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but bottom line is that a once a week treatment for 4 weeks is not likely to kill these creatures, but may serve to limit their increasing numbers. The big question is what is there in the wild that keeps these things in check, and god forbid they were to be introduced into an environment that has no natural predator!
treatment timing - These things take 21 days to hatch so lets say the maximum range is 28 days. This means if you treat and a worm lays eggs that day then even if you do 4 weekly treatments you may have a hatch right after your last treatment. Worse still if these treatments are only 90% effective then you may have a worm live until the next treatment and then lay an egg which would push the treatment out another 4 weeks from that day. My point is I think for any treatment to work it needs to have 100% kill rate. This got me thinking that maintaining a constant low dosage in the reef may be a possible answer, but I have no idea how long the levamisole molecule lasts in a reef. In the human body it has a half life of only 3 to 4 hours. I'm considering trying a daily treatment of low dosage in a separate tank.
Anyways that's it for now.
By the way found the link to this paper.
Taxonomy and Life History of AEFW
I paid for it so feel free to ask questions. The summary in the abstract has all the relevant info.
Adults lay 20-26 eggs. Eggs take about 21 days to hatch. Each egg has up to 3 embryos. The hatchlings can swim, but prefer to just settle where they are. The adults seem to only lay eggs on skeletal remains and never on living tissue. They did not discuss how long the worms lived or how soon after hatching they were able to breed. They did show that reproduction is sexual with a male and a female worm being necessary, and they did discuss the fact that these worms seem to come out of the egg fully formed so it is likely they can breed right away although they indicated a need to study this further to determine whether there was another metamorphic stage in the life cycle of the worm.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but bottom line is that a once a week treatment for 4 weeks is not likely to kill these creatures, but may serve to limit their increasing numbers. The big question is what is there in the wild that keeps these things in check, and god forbid they were to be introduced into an environment that has no natural predator!
FWIW - I still don't have any signs of them and never saw an adult after the second treatment. I would probably do 6 weeks if I knew what I know now, but I am OK.
Ornamental shrimp, crabs (arrow), Halichoeres wrasses, the torpedo looking Chrysiptera damsels will all aggressively eat them, but if you have colonies, they can be quite well hidden.
Ornamental shrimp, crabs (arrow), Halichoeres wrasses, the torpedo looking Chrysiptera damsels will all aggressively eat them, but if you have colonies, they can be quite well hidden.
JPMagyar,
Dr. Rawlison is working with a member here on a study in case you want to read up on it.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346292
I posted this thread on it.
Dr. Rawlison is working with a member here on a study in case you want to read up on it.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346292
I posted this thread on it.
trueblackpercula
New member
Halichoeres and Chrysiptera are the latin (family?) names for the fish.
Lysmata are the shrimp name, but stay with the reef safe ones - the more of these that you have, the more that they will wanter and find stuff in the tank (this goes for Aiptasia as well).
For the crabs, I don't know the names, but scarlet reef crabs, most hermits, acro crabs (for sure) and arrow crabs are opportunistic hunters. A somewhat-friend here in Colorado saw his arrow crab go over and start pulling AEFW off of a colony that he got at MACNA and did not dip.
Lysmata are the shrimp name, but stay with the reef safe ones - the more of these that you have, the more that they will wanter and find stuff in the tank (this goes for Aiptasia as well).
For the crabs, I don't know the names, but scarlet reef crabs, most hermits, acro crabs (for sure) and arrow crabs are opportunistic hunters. A somewhat-friend here in Colorado saw his arrow crab go over and start pulling AEFW off of a colony that he got at MACNA and did not dip.
trueblackpercula
New member
Jda thanks but I fear that I will have no choice but to treat the entire tank. I just have one question for now before I get started. Is this what you used at the recommend dosage and used for three treatments.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prohibit-Le...520?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d3eeae00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prohibit-Le...520?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d3eeae00
trueblackpercula
New member
Thanks again, I just want to make sure I understand completly,I have almost the same set up as you 120 gallons with 3 inches of live sand and 5 small fish.
Potion Prep * Mixed up gently packed*and*leveled 1tsp of Phohibit (Levamisole
Hydrochloride) in a 500ml water bottle filled to the top with RO.
REMOVE CARBON,STOP CARBON DOSING,SHUT OF SKIMMER leave everything else on like heaters lights return pumps ETC.
Dose 1.5 ml per gallon of water of the potion into tank and let sit for 24 hours as the first treatment.
while that is in the tank turkey baste all acros to remove AEFW
after 24 hours change water,add carbon, turn back on skimmer enjoy sps
now this is were i get lost.when is second treatment do,after how many days? also is the potion made stronger and lastly you say 5 treatments so what would the potion strength be for each for 120 gallons of water ?
many thanks and a soon as i get started I will share my results.
I am so excided to get started.
michael
trueblackpercula
New member
I meant to ask ask how many have tried this with sand beds? I am still waiting for my shipment to come in and have read everything i can thus far.
From what I have read It should be 5 treatments 7 to 10 days apart and it should stay in the tank for 24 hours for each treatment. the treatment should be:
1.5ml/g dose 1
1.5ml/g dose 2
2.4ml/g dose 3
3.4ml/g dose 4
2.2ml/g dose 5
From what I have read It should be 5 treatments 7 to 10 days apart and it should stay in the tank for 24 hours for each treatment. the treatment should be:
1.5ml/g dose 1
1.5ml/g dose 2
2.4ml/g dose 3
3.4ml/g dose 4
2.2ml/g dose 5
rovster
New member
Just an update but I have not seen any sign of AEFW since treatment. I did 4 rounds and a tank transfer after the final round. I did experience a crash totally unrelated to this but I did inspect all acros for eggs and they were all clean. I think a tank wide treatment with a transfer component us definitely worth looking into....
I have sand... about 2 inches. This will make the bristle worms really mad. It will also stun mini brittle stars, but from what I can tell, they come out of it.
I had a nice little pile of bristles after a few hours that I siphoned out since I had no idea if they would live or die.
I had a nice little pile of bristles after a few hours that I siphoned out since I had no idea if they would live or die.
trueblackpercula
New member
thanks again for all the advice,help and support
trueblackpercula
New member
I would just dip with bayer if that's the case but yes from what I have read it will also do the trick. Dip the rocks too
It could work. They can somewhat swim and I guess that you could miss them, but if they are any good at their jobs, they should be in/around the acros.
Inspect them when you take them out - if you see any eggs, then scrub/scrape those little devils off of there.
Wash the rocks really well after you dip with either. Aragonite is a very effective bonder and I would hate for it to carry some med into the tank.
Inspect them when you take them out - if you see any eggs, then scrub/scrape those little devils off of there.
Wash the rocks really well after you dip with either. Aragonite is a very effective bonder and I would hate for it to carry some med into the tank.
