Algae Scrubber Advanced

[crazzyreefer]

It doesn't even take light just warm sea water, no, not in a life time, some plastics only yellow, become brittle, others revert into liquid, noticeable?, but all the same still leaching. I saw the post that someone was adding UV lighting to it... well lets just speed up the reaction time 1000 fold... I know many people will tell you an epoxy tank is ok... hell I'm not here to argue... do what you like... but be informed and read white pages... or even go to a boat yard... Its science, its not anecdotal...

Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't, If that what they are using, two ply? doesn't sound like PPE but PPE is still reef safe even in clear, it just doesn't have the same stability for yellowing and brittling as black does. Life time... hmmm... I have seen hydrolization an a matter of a year, it significantly speeds up with the following conditions,(they don't all need to be present, but multiple factors speeds up the process). immersion or constant contact with water, High or low PH, UV radiation, Temperature above 75 degrees. Water being the key factor with the others as a contributing factor for the failure.

Cole palmer research is a bit misleading, yes its sea water safe, for 48hr...but not safe against hydrolisation, which makes it not reef safe in the long run.. Now not all LLDPE will products surcome to this, just as not all fiberglass boats don[t all turn to jelly and sink... but most unprotected boats will suffer major damage due to it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I saw the post that someone was adding UV lighting to it... well lets just speed up the reaction time 1000 fold...

That is definitely worth noting. Anyone experimenting with UV should probably use PPE. Thanks to CR I'm looking into this material as well.

What about 422.5nm True Violet? (from Steve's LEDs) I think that has some UV in it. Probably not as much as a more true UV lamp, whether that is fluorescent or LED.

Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't, If that what they are using, two ply? doesn't sound like PPE but PPE is still reef safe even in clear, it just doesn't have the same stability for yellowing and brittling as black does.

Did you mean LLDPE instead of PPE in the 2 spots above? I think so...just clarifying.

As far as yellowing and brittling goes, one could argue that this isn't an issue on their screens, however, the flipside is

1) not many have been running scrubbers (waterfall) for more than a few years, so how would they know

2) most have enough growth that they don't see their screens, as they are covered with algae (which may be protecting the material to a certain extent)

3) in order to truly see if there is yellowing/brittling, one would have to clean the screen down bare (bleach, scrubbing, etc)

heck even I haven't used the same screen for more than 18 months. When I switched to the smaller LED scrubber, I threw out the old screen. Can't recall what condition it was in, but it wasn't horrible or anything (under T5HO)

Life time... hmmm... I have seen hydrolization an a matter of a year, it significantly speeds up with the following conditions,(they don't all need to be present, but multiple factors speeds up the process). immersion or constant contact with water, High or low PH, UV radiation, Temperature above 75 degrees. Water being the key factor with the others as a contributing factor for the failure.

...which are all the conditions we are in. I think it's worth consideration for the long term of the device. Anything that could be construed as not being reef safe might not cause a problem in the majority of tanks, but could cause a problem in someone's tank at some point, although it might be difficult to point to the screen material as a culprit, having that out of the equation would be good overall.

Now not all LLDPE will products surcome to this, just as not all fiberglass boats don[t all turn to jelly and sink... but most unprotected boats will suffer major damage due to it.

So this particular LLDPE product may not have a problem at all, is that what you're saying? Is there any way to test the material to find out?

As far as breakdown and leeching goes, with both screens and plywood tanks as you mentioned, wouldn't any leeched substances be taken out of the water column if one used activated carbon or some other widely used means of filtration?

 

[acroman]

Yes PPE in black is stable even in water, but clear PPE isn't.

The black is the UV-stabilizer, so this makes sense.

Cole palmer research is a bit misleading, yes its sea water safe, for 48hr...but not safe against hydrolisation, which makes it not reef safe in the long run..

I have yet to find a compatibility chart that lists seawater as incompatible with LDPE or PE.... Not to say they don't exist, but from the dozen or so i looked at, they all listed seawater as the highest compatibility.

LDPE Nalgene bottles are also the preferred bottle type for many types of analytical sampling, or chemical storage, due to their inherent chemical stability.

White/clear LDPE should be relatively stable in an aquarium (without UV). The pH is only ~8 (neutral is 7,) and temperature around 26C. It is approved as food grade packaging material for a wide variety of acidic and basic foods, and is dishwasher safe. This is the same material that tupperware is made out of.

LLDPE, LDPE, HDPE are different beasts.
The screen material commonly used is LDPE, not LLDPE right? LDPE is "4" for the recycling number that is printed on many plastics.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Darice #7 mesh is LLDPE

Thank you for your interest in Darice products. Item 33900-1 is made of linear low density polyethylene, commonly called LLDPE. I hope this information helps you.

Best regards,

M.P. Catan
Director of Product Compliance
Darice Inc./Lamrite West
13000 Darice Pkwy.
Strongsville, OH. 44149
Direct Dial: (440) 878-3550

 

[acroman]

Darice #7 mesh is LLDPE

Good to know... Time to switch research mode to LLDPE.

I personally haven't used the Darice mesh, and i think the screen i have may be PPE (had a couple rolls laying around.)

Plastic type may have an influence the initial growth on the screen, as the surface textures, or mold-release waxes may be different. Would be interesting to compare algae growth and adhesion between plastic types.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

You're the second person to mention mold-release wax, the first being Santa Monica. I put mesh under a microscope before cleaning (off the shelf) as well as after boiling a screen for several minutes (which did not result in a wax being released from the screen, even when cool, there was no wax coagulation). I even bleached and scrubbed a screen. No difference. So at least the Darice stuff does not have any significant amount of mold release wax.

 

[crazzyreefer]

Didn't think of the release, but its is extruded (I believe) and food safe... so I am hoping its also doesn't have wax or oils for release... and as you see the many production variations that can and do exist, methods will change from manufacture to manufacture based on cost cutting in china. I can ask the manufacture of the release method,but it will be the desired manufacturing method, not the current method. but If we can't get a straight answer on baby food and dog food, do you really think we will get a straight answer on plastic netting?

Wow.. I reading what I write... and I'm more than a skeptic...

I'm sending Floyd a bunch of it that didn't work for my purpose, Not that it was not the right stuff, it just wouldn't work on my machine due to stiffness issues. Acroman was correct, the black gives it the UV protection, but to my thinking, white or clear allows the light to reach through the algae mat and help it grow... (not researched) but the degradation, was only yellowing and brittlement, at which point its a sign to replace the screen.

As for skimmer, carbon or other filtration removing the breaking down of plastic.... don't know, I know the skimmer goes crazy when you use glue or epoxy in the tank, again no research, and no one has yet to figure out if all those glued/epoxy plugs are not breaking down also... again no research... The only research done is because its big business protecting boats. Some research is done due to waste management, again a big business, and green recycling.... yet another highly profitable business model.... Yes we complain that we spend our paychecks on our tanks, but it still doesn't add up to one day of garbage collection fees assessed to every home and business... So no one is going to spend millions of dollars to test plastics for a reef environment.

I'm with Floyd on the thinking when a tank crashes, don't be the one to blame... don't need another DSB finger pointing flame war... unlike skimmers, this is a product that has the potential revolutionizes the way we buffer our PH and filter water for both fresh and salt water aquariums.

 

[Brummie]

Thought I would put a video up of my scrubber for discussion, if anyone is interested;

http://youtu.be/5UDi2okBGYM

 

[salty joe]

How about some details?

 

[Brummie]

It's a fully submerged, wave augmented horizontal scrubber. I started off doing experiments with surge devices and growing algae inside them maybe 5 months ago, and got growth rates in excess of my waterfall;

This is the growth I had on my waterfall;

This is my small surge device that took a couple of months to fully mature;

Now after successful testing, I have put a simple large 13x10 (old waterfall screen) horizontally in my sump. It was initially "surged" with the small surge device pictured above. Growth was good but not brilliant;

If you look closely at the screen, you can see trapped photosynthetic oxygen (bubbles). To me, that indicates inadequate flow. So I changed from the surge device to a DIY wave maker (pump directed straight up to the sump surface).

Now, growth seems to be increased;

And without bubbles;

Over the next few months I expect further improvement and will be documenting it.

 

[Brummie]

Ahh - seems like the pictures have gone pear shaped. IOS7 problem no doubt. You can find them on Floyds site if interested. Sorry :hmm4:

Edit - bloody strange, tapa tapa seems to be ok

 

[salty joe]

I have been considering something similar, what you have looks great!

 

[Brummie]

Unlike Mr Monica I have spent time testing and have found this to be the most efficient and simple form of scrubbing. Get one going, reap the benefits.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

It's an RC bug. Pics posted via tapatalk will not show up correctly. Also if you quote a post via tapatalk you will see the BB code. Here I am re-quoting your post via my PC and you should now be able to see all the pics.

It's a fully submerged, wave augmented horizontal scrubber. I started off doing experiments with surge devices and growing algae inside them maybe 5 months ago, and got growth rates in excess of my waterfall;

This is the growth I had on my waterfall;

This is my small surge device that took a couple of months to fully mature;

Now after successful testing, I have put a simple large 13x10 (old waterfall screen) horizontally in my sump. It was initially "surged" with the small surge device pictured above. Growth was good but not brilliant;

If you look closely at the screen, you can see trapped photosynthetic oxygen (bubbles). To me, that indicates inadequate flow. So I changed from the surge device to a DIY wave maker (pump directed straight up to the sump surface).

Now, growth seems to be increased;

And without bubbles;

Over the next few months I expect further improvement and will be documenting it.

 

[Brummie]

Should probably start a thread, but hey ho!
Immediately after harvest;

+24hrs;

 

[salty joe]

Should probably start a thread, but hey ho!
Immediately after harvest;

IDK, this thread is about algae scrubbing. Something like this will fit my sloooowly developing system well.

I'd love to see your plumbing details. Your system looks outstanding!

Thank you Floyd, for getting those pics up.

 

[Brummie]

IDK, this thread is about algae scrubbing. Something like this will fit my sloooowly developing system well.

I'd love to see your plumbing details. Your system looks outstanding!

Thank you Floyd, for getting those pics up.

Oh well, this thread seems a bit quiet lately anyway

+ 48hrs

+ 72hrs

 

[salty joe]

Growth looks great!
How do you hold the screen in place?

What wattage and how many (looks like deep red 660 LED) are you using? How close to the water are they?

Your screen is 13x10. Are we talking inches?

Wavemaker from the bottom, hmmmm. I hope you don't mind if I copy that idea from you.
I was going to run a wavemaker in the conventional horizontal position.

 

[Brummie]

Salty - the screen is held about 3 inches below water surface by a Perspex (plexiglass) bracket made to hang in my sump. light is supplied by. Chinese 50w grow led, and a 27w Chinese.

4 days after harvest;

5 days

Edit - yep, it's inches

 

[Nizz]

Edit - yep, it's inches

That's what she said!!!