Algae Scrubber Basics

[TheHoove]

So this evening will be my 3rd cleaning. I'm starting to get 3d growth. But brown. The screen has turned a solid yellow color. I have a feeling I'm going to need more light. But Before I jump into changing anything, Im curious how long is normal to start seeing green growth? Right now I have 2 23w CFLs over a 10x10 screen. In 10" reflectors painted gloss white.

 

[srusso]

Just cleaned my screens....i believe this is week 4. i think my lights are too close.

Steve

Yeah, well it's hard to say for sure. CFLs pointed at the screen will almost always create some type of "hotspot" however... I think you should move them back a bit. Let one or two weeks with new placement. About 1/2" back should be enough IMHO. If the hotspot still happens I would figure out how you could hang the parallel, similar to my setup. You get a more even coverage, but more light spillage...

 

[srusso]

srusso;

The above post is in response to your advise to use T5's. It got missed and I am hoping for another option with lighting other than purchasing T5's.

thanks......chuck

Yes, if CFLs are a must about three on each side, should do the trick. Make a screen that is 15" wide x 7" tall. Use 23 w bulbs. I find anything more makes it harder to get good placement without burning the algae.

 

[srusso]

So this evening will be my 3rd cleaning. I'm starting to get 3d growth. But brown. The screen has turned a solid yellow color. I have a feeling I'm going to need more light. But Before I jump into changing anything, Im curious how long is normal to start seeing green growth? Right now I have 2 23w CFLs over a 10x10 screen. In 10" reflectors painted gloss white.

Yellow growth could be a few things. I would first check your flow. Yellow means lack of "food" for the algae. Since water delivers the food start here... Are any sections green? Second I would try and feed more, for two weeks slowly increase the food, if your feeding once a day start doing two smaller feedings a day.

The normal time you should start to see green growth is at least in the first 4 weeks. If you don't see at least a little green, than I would believe something isn't right and we should troubleshoot your build.

Only if the tank has/had N or P issues should the 4 week green point be extended. Hope that last part makes sense...

 

[Rabidgoose]

Yes, if CFLs are a must about three on each side, should do the trick. Make a screen that is 15" wide x 7" tall. Use 23 w bulbs. I find anything more makes it harder to get good placement without burning the algae.

Okay, thanks, I will start gathering the materials and update as I progress. Probably more questions to follow but I have enough info to start. I will also keep an eye out for some cheap T5's.

 

[Barfly]

SantaMonica has gone like 5 years with nothing but a scrubber and inland aquatics is at like 19 years with no water changes....

Barfly doesn't have a link like you asked for. Because no such anecdotal evidence exists.

SM 5 years? SM started his scrubber in July of 2008. I have no idea how many water changes he has done.

Inland Aquatics 19 years? LOL, they are actually performing daily water changes. They are a business. Think about it. Also, those of us who have actually seen the tanks report a slight yellow tint to the water.

Links and studies? There is actually a book written by Dr. Adey called "Dynamic Aquaria" for one.

For other links see this thread...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843 (The thread is long, but is a must read, imo, if your thinking about implementing an ATS.)

Again, I am not against the use of an ATS, just the belief that it is the only filtration needed. There are many scientific studies that show why this to be true.

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/aquaria/reefkeeper/2-9-Algae-Scrubbers-long.html

HTH
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:dance:

 

[SPotter]

Yeah, well it's hard to say for sure. CFLs pointed at the screen will almost always create some type of "hotspot" however... I think you should move them back a bit. Let one or two weeks with new placement. About 1/2" back should be enough IMHO. If the hotspot still happens I would figure out how you could hang the parallel, similar to my setup. You get a more even coverage, but more light spillage...

Im running leds and have moved them back an inch on each side. Thanks for the feed back.

Steve

 

[tyler91913]

Anyone have any tips on finding the 40-45 watt CFL's at a price less than HD's $9 per bulb?

 

[SPotter]

SM 5 years? SM started his scrubber in July of 2008. I have no idea how many water changes he has done.

Inland Aquatics 19 years? LOL, they are actually performing daily water changes. They are a business. Think about it. Also, those of us who have actually seen the tanks report a slight yellow tint to the water.

Links and studies? There is actually a book written by Dr. Adey called "Dynamic Aquaria" for one.

For other links see this thread...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843 (The thread is long, but is a must read, imo, if your thinking about implementing an ATS.)

Again, I am not against the use of an ATS, just the belief that it is the only filtration needed. There are many scientific studies that show why this to be true.

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/aquaria/reefkeeper/2-9-Algae-Scrubbers-long.html

HTH
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:dance:

Ok barfly....you've make your point that you disagree with some of the statements made in here. You might not find this thread helpful but there are a lot of people who do. Lets agree to disagree and move on. Its almost like you are trying to instigated an argument in here with the hopes the thread will get locked.

Just move on.

Steve

 

[TheHoove]

Yellow growth could be a few things. I would first check your flow. Yellow means lack of "food" for the algae. Since water delivers the food start here... Are any sections green? Second I would try and feed more, for two weeks slowly increase the food, if your feeding once a day start doing two smaller feedings a day.

The normal time you should start to see green growth is at least in the first 4 weeks. If you don't see at least a little green, than I would believe something isn't right and we should troubleshoot your build.

Only if the tank has/had N or P issues should the 4 week green point be extended. Hope that last part makes sense...

I know my flow was at 250 meaured before i hooked it up. Then i cleaned the pump, took 3 feet out of returen by moving it to the othedr side of the sump. That made a huge difference in visable flow out the return. It may still be low. Need to measure. I only feed one or 2 cubes a day of food in my 75g. No measurable nitrates or phosphates, but not sure i trust the phosphate test.

 

[Barfly]

Lets have a look at this...
2004 Advanced Aquarist Feature Article: A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater
By Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D., Jennifer L. Coshland

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/9/aafeature


"Eight commercially available synthetic sea salts (SSS), Instant Ocean (IO), BioSea Marine Mix (BSMM), Crystal Seas Marine Mix Bioassay (CSMMB), Coralife (CL), Tropic Marin (TM), Reef Crystals (RC), Red Sea (RS) and Oceanic Sea Salt (OSS), and two natural seawater samples Catalina Water Company (CWC) and unfiltered seawater (NSW-M) collected from Malibu State Beach, CA, were analyzed via ICP-MS for eleven trace elements and by ICP-MS/DRC for four other trace elements. The majority of the SSS examined had trace element concentrations at values equal to or below those for natural seawater. The trace elements beryllium, cobalt and copper were below the limit of detection for all samples. Silver and Thallium were detected only in OSS. CSMMB was the only SSS with a detectable level of aluminum (10 ppb) but NSW had the largest amount (20 ppb). Cadmium was detected in only two samples: TM (0.31 ppb) and BSMM (0.24 ppb). Zinc was found in four samples: CWC with the highest value (21 ppb) followed by RS (5 ppb), TM (4.1 ppb) and CL (2.9 ppb). Vanadium was detected in four SSS (TM, RC, OSS and CSMMB) but the levels were lower than NSW at 2.0 ppb. Trace amounts (<1 ppb) of chromium were found in five SSS (IO, RC, OSS, RS, and CSMMB) but a sixth (BSMM) contained 27 ppb. Lead was found in six SSS (TM, OSS, RS, CL, CSMMB and BSMM) at various levels below 2 ppb, however, CWC had concentration of 39 ppb. The remaining trace elements (antimony, manganese, molybdenum and nickel) were detected in all the samples at levels generally at or below that of NSW-M except for one SSS. BSMM had significantly higher concentrations of all these trace elements: (Sb-3.5 ppb; Mn-135 ppb, Mo-87 ppb and Ni-108 ppb) compared to all other samples tested. In terms of the total amount of trace elements detected, three SSS (TM, IO and RC) formed a group with levels below 33 ppb while another three (OSS, RS and CL) had a total concentration near 40 ppb. These two groups of SSS had lower total levels of trace elements than NSW-M and CWC. Of the remaining SSS, CSMMB (58.21 ppb) was higher than NSW-M (44.68 ppb) but lower than CWC (73.78 ppb). The last SSS, BSMM, had a total trace element concentration of over 361 ppb. "

Seems to me that we have some variation from brand to brand, and from NSW... but I guess a little should be expected... lets read on

"However, some elements may fall into two of the three classifications above. For instance, depending upon water depth, copper and iron are both recycled and scavenged (Kremling et. al. 1999). These two elements are depleted in surface waters due to the high productivity associated with this zone of maximum sunlight penetration, and so algae growth, but then their concentrations increase with depth as they are recycled from the decay of marine snow."

So trace elements are found to be "depleted" in some depths and not in deeper depths... interesting... what depth level of trace elements is your salt mix set for? What depth is your tank simulating?

So lets have a look at this picture of a coral lagoon... these corals seems to be growing well, in what should be considered a "depleted" zone...

View attachment 160190

And the best quote yet, we read...

"Unfortunately, no research exists on the potentially positive or negative effects of low amounts of various trace elements in aquaria. Indeed, for many years several manufacturers of synthetic sea salts, in order to provide a complete formula, added or separately provided trace elements to their basic formula (Anonymous 1985, 1990). In recent years, however, this practice has nearly stopped as it was realized that many trace elements are naturally present in low quantities in the major chemical compounds, such as sodium chloride, magnesium chloride and sodium sulfate, used to make synthetic sea salts."
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:dance:

http://www.burgerszoo.eu/media/108812/chapter 15.pdf

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

 

[srusso]

I know my flow was at 250 meaured before i hooked it up. Then i cleaned the pump, took 3 feet out of returen by moving it to the othedr side of the sump. That made a huge difference in visable flow out the return. It may still be low. Need to measure. I only feed one or 2 cubes a day of food in my 75g. No measurable nitrates or phosphates, but not sure i trust the phosphate test.

At the moment I am feeding 3 cubes a day plus some reef flake food almost a full shrimp for anemones and hermits. All in my 70 gallon

 

[srusso]

http://www.burgerszoo.eu/media/108812/chapter 15.pdf

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Do you mind siting your findings that support your side... or "argument"?

 

[srusso]

http://www.burgerszoo.eu/media/108812/chapter 15.pdf

Wow are you even reading this stuff...

Many aquariums (53%) measure trace elements on weekly, monthly or yearly basis, with spectrophotometry, ICP-MS and ICP-OES.
67% of the institutions are adding some kind of trace element mixtures into their systems, half of them used commercial available solutions, others had mixtures composed by their own.
Control of the effects of these additions was performed in 90% by bio monitoring and in some cases completed with measurements.
Positive effects were mentioned but also doubts if these effects were related to the additions only. As references Spotte (1992), Delbeek and Sprung (1994) and Nilsen and Fossa (2002) were mentioned.


Its goes on to say....

The importance of analyzing water quality is understood, but only 50 % of the institutions is measuring in some way. However the number of answered questionnaires was limited.
From the institutions that are adding mixtures into their systems little is known what really happens. Measuring shortness or overdimensioned additions of elements (Sondervan, 2001) is not carried out on a regular basis. This seems to be a small basis for proper husbandry when handling is almost only related on bio monitoring.

 

[JohnnyB in SD]

Whatever.
Let's just agree that the choice to use ATS with or without other filtration methods and water quality enhancements is a personal choice and move on with the business of helping people that want setup ATS do so and troubleshoot as necessary.

 

[aquaenthusiast]

Whatever.
Let's just agree that the choice to use ATS with or without other filtration methods and water quality enhancements is a personal choice and move on with the business of helping people that want setup ATS do so and troubleshoot as necessary.

I agree, although trace elements and water changes are semi-relevant, move on to the actual process of building ATS's.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

SM 5 years? SM started his scrubber in July of 2008. I have no idea how many water changes he has done.

Inland Aquatics 19 years? LOL, they are actually performing daily water changes. They are a business. Think about it. Also, those of us who have actually seen the tanks report a slight yellow tint to the water.

Links and studies? There is actually a book written by Dr. Adey called "Dynamic Aquaria" for one.

For other links see this thread...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843 (The thread is long, but is a must read, imo, if your thinking about implementing an ATS.)

Again, I am not against the use of an ATS, just the belief that it is the only filtration needed. There are many scientific studies that show why this to be true.

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/aquaria/reefkeeper/2-9-Algae-Scrubbers-long.html

HTH
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:dance:

I apologize. I read an incorrect post on SM then. I spoke to a representative of Inland Aqauatics (this person presented themselves in a manner that made me believe they were the owner) that stated they haven't done a water change in 19 years. In addition when I toured there facility this was stressed. Where did you get the information that they did daily water changes?

I am looking forward to the read, thank you. As of this response I haven't read it yet though.

I agree with your last statement. I think they are great. I think WC's are great, I think skimmers are great. But I think they all have different strengths and weaknesses and using multiple methods gives more insurance IMHO.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

He's talking about the water that goes along with filling bags with water for fish and corals. So maybe like 0.01% PWC daily because of make-up water.

 

[TheHoove]

Here Is my screen at 3rd cleaning:

Some green growth at the bottom outside the reflectors. Small spots here and there throughout.

 

[Barfly]

I apologize. I read an incorrect post on SM then. I spoke to a representative of Inland Aqauatics (this person presented themselves in a manner that made me believe they were the owner) that stated they haven't done a water change in 19 years. In addition when I toured there facility this was stressed. Where did you get the information that they did daily water changes?

I am looking forward to the read, thank you. As of this response I haven't read it yet though.

I agree with your last statement. I think they are great. I think WC's are great, I think skimmers are great. But I think they all have different strengths and weaknesses and using multiple methods gives more insurance IMHO.

Think about how much livestock Inland Aquatics sells everyday and all the water that is sent out each day. Maybe they don't do "water changes", but they have do to water replacements. So if ya think about it, they are technically doing small water changes every day.