Algae Scrubber Basics
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hkgar
Active member
Can you describe how you have your screen hooked up?
hkgar
Active member
Feeding is about 3 cubes per day so I only need 36 sq. inches? A 6x6 or 12x3 screen seems quite small
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Yes, that's all you need. I run a 4x6 screen on a 144 and another one that size on a 120.
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
There isn't any problem with running a screen that is "too large" for the bioload though, is there? I can't imagine why there would be.
Also, fun news for anyone out there who is a Cree groupie like I am: Cree is FINALLY making 660 nm LEDs. They are likely superior to the Philips Luxeon Rebel 660s, because while the flux appears to be basically identical, Cree rates theirs for a higher max current, meaning they are likely more robust. And RapidLED is selling them for $3 FTW.
Also, fun news for anyone out there who is a Cree groupie like I am: Cree is FINALLY making 660 nm LEDs. They are likely superior to the Philips Luxeon Rebel 660s, because while the flux appears to be basically identical, Cree rates theirs for a higher max current, meaning they are likely more robust. And RapidLED is selling them for $3 FTW.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Just a little refresh on my LED guidelines for scrubbers:
Here is my recommendation for LED lighting of a waterfall algae scrubber screen:
This is for a double-sided screen using Philips Luxeon ES 3W Deep Red 660nm LEDs without lenses (120-140 degree) running at 700mA at 2-3" from the screen to LED
Minimum coverage: One LED on each side of every 8 sq in of screen
Maximum coverage: One LED on each side of every 4 sq in of screen
Simple as that. For new screens (bare) if using the "Maximum" level, run at 350mA until mature, or use a diffuser. Might have to do this with the Minimum level also actually, but not typically. The minimum could probably be stretched to a larger area but screen will cure slower and generally have less capacity.
So for a 6x6 screen, which is 36 sq in, /8 = 4.5 per side. Make it 5.
So for a 6x6 screen, which is 36 sq in, /4 = 9 per side.
Supplementing with blue/violet: Always run blues at 350mA, violets can be run higher but should follow the same rule for the maturing stage (350 at first, then increase after maturing). Use one to two at this current level for every 5-6 reds, roughly. Lots of flexibility here, a little blue/violet goes a long way. I've used 440-445nm Royal Blue Luxeon ESs for this, but I know of at least one other that used to use RBs and switched to Deep Violets and almost doubled growth. Steve's LEDs now carries a good Hyper Violet made by SemiLED.
Regarding non DIY-LEDs in general, this is what I have roughed out to help with this.
The issue is that my DIY LED guideline is based on coverage. You can't say "I need 5 3W LEDs which is 15W, so a 15 W fixture is what I need". It doesn't work that way.
That's because a 3W LED does not necessarily consume 3W, and a purchased LED may rate it's intensity based on actual wattage used, or it may add up the LEDs and give a wattage but the actual watt draw is less. You have to watch for this.
A 3W Philips Luxeon ES 660nm LED will typically drop 2.2v across the LED at 700mA. Power = Amps * Volts so 2.2 V * 0.700 A = 1.54W. What? I thought it was a 3W. It is. That is something called MARKETING. LEDs have become more efficient over time as they have been redesigned, so a lower Vdrop and Idrive results in the same output, but instead of calling it a 1.5W and confusing everyone, they call it a 3W still.
So now on to your fixture you are looking at.
Converting the "LED per unit area guideline" to a "wattage" guideline is as simple as doing the math.
Figure out what you need per the "unit area" guideline. In the above example, 6x6 screen, minimum level (low intensity), 5x 3W per side. Each is actually drawing 1.5W, so 5x1.5 = 7.5W. Your light fixture should actually consume, at the wall, a minimum of 7.5W. The electronics built into the fixture will draw power also, meaning that you might want to add a little cushion to the number. So a 10W fixture on a 6x6 screen would be about right for a comparable replacement to an array of 5x 3W LEDs.
Now let's add that factor in and parallel it to screen size. A 6x6 screen = 36 sq in. Make it 40. you need a 10W actual-draw LED fixture on each side of this. So you could say that the rule of thumb for a pre-built LED fixture is that you need 0.25W per square inch of screen. That would get you into the Minimum light arena - or "Minimum Intensity", and you need one of these on each side of the screen.
Doubling that would put you on the higher end. 0.5W per square inch - actual wattage draw of fixture.
What you have to watch for is when they use a multi-chip that has 9 1W LEDs on it and they call that 10W. Not necessarily true. But 1W LEDs are actually more efficient than 3W LEDs when you are talking radiant flux output per unit of energy input into the LED, so it's not horrible, just shoot for the higher light level and you'll be OK usually. At best, you will actually be at the minimum level. At worst, you'll be on the low side but still OK.
Essentially this is correct but my write-up makes this more complicated and confusing
but for the techies that are into fixture building, this will resonate. Simply put, 1/2 the wattage of CFL gets you somewhere inbetween the "low" and "high" intensity levels for a stock fixture, and closer to the "high" intensity for a DIY build.
Here is my recommendation for LED lighting of a waterfall algae scrubber screen:
This is for a double-sided screen using Philips Luxeon ES 3W Deep Red 660nm LEDs without lenses (120-140 degree) running at 700mA at 2-3" from the screen to LED
Minimum coverage: One LED on each side of every 8 sq in of screen
Maximum coverage: One LED on each side of every 4 sq in of screen
Simple as that. For new screens (bare) if using the "Maximum" level, run at 350mA until mature, or use a diffuser. Might have to do this with the Minimum level also actually, but not typically. The minimum could probably be stretched to a larger area but screen will cure slower and generally have less capacity.
So for a 6x6 screen, which is 36 sq in, /8 = 4.5 per side. Make it 5.
So for a 6x6 screen, which is 36 sq in, /4 = 9 per side.
Supplementing with blue/violet: Always run blues at 350mA, violets can be run higher but should follow the same rule for the maturing stage (350 at first, then increase after maturing). Use one to two at this current level for every 5-6 reds, roughly. Lots of flexibility here, a little blue/violet goes a long way. I've used 440-445nm Royal Blue Luxeon ESs for this, but I know of at least one other that used to use RBs and switched to Deep Violets and almost doubled growth. Steve's LEDs now carries a good Hyper Violet made by SemiLED.
Regarding non DIY-LEDs in general, this is what I have roughed out to help with this.
The issue is that my DIY LED guideline is based on coverage. You can't say "I need 5 3W LEDs which is 15W, so a 15 W fixture is what I need". It doesn't work that way.
That's because a 3W LED does not necessarily consume 3W, and a purchased LED may rate it's intensity based on actual wattage used, or it may add up the LEDs and give a wattage but the actual watt draw is less. You have to watch for this.
A 3W Philips Luxeon ES 660nm LED will typically drop 2.2v across the LED at 700mA. Power = Amps * Volts so 2.2 V * 0.700 A = 1.54W. What? I thought it was a 3W. It is. That is something called MARKETING. LEDs have become more efficient over time as they have been redesigned, so a lower Vdrop and Idrive results in the same output, but instead of calling it a 1.5W and confusing everyone, they call it a 3W still.
So now on to your fixture you are looking at.
Converting the "LED per unit area guideline" to a "wattage" guideline is as simple as doing the math.
Figure out what you need per the "unit area" guideline. In the above example, 6x6 screen, minimum level (low intensity), 5x 3W per side. Each is actually drawing 1.5W, so 5x1.5 = 7.5W. Your light fixture should actually consume, at the wall, a minimum of 7.5W. The electronics built into the fixture will draw power also, meaning that you might want to add a little cushion to the number. So a 10W fixture on a 6x6 screen would be about right for a comparable replacement to an array of 5x 3W LEDs.
Now let's add that factor in and parallel it to screen size. A 6x6 screen = 36 sq in. Make it 40. you need a 10W actual-draw LED fixture on each side of this. So you could say that the rule of thumb for a pre-built LED fixture is that you need 0.25W per square inch of screen. That would get you into the Minimum light arena - or "Minimum Intensity", and you need one of these on each side of the screen.
Doubling that would put you on the higher end. 0.5W per square inch - actual wattage draw of fixture.
What you have to watch for is when they use a multi-chip that has 9 1W LEDs on it and they call that 10W. Not necessarily true. But 1W LEDs are actually more efficient than 3W LEDs when you are talking radiant flux output per unit of energy input into the LED, so it's not horrible, just shoot for the higher light level and you'll be OK usually. At best, you will actually be at the minimum level. At worst, you'll be on the low side but still OK.
Essentially this is correct but my write-up makes this more complicated and confusing
jedimasterben
LED world domination!
FYI there is no such thing as a 'Luxeon ES'. There are Rebel ES (available in white, royal blue, and lime) and Rebel (white, royal blue, blue, cyan, green, red, red-orange, deep red). 
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
True, but Luxeon ES, Luxeon Rebel ES, Rebel ES, all will generally get you to the same product as there is only one model of 660 Deep Red by Philips
http://shop.stevesleds.com/LUXEON-ES-3-Watt-LEDs_c27.htm
http://www.rapidled.com/philips-luxeon-rebel-es-660nm-deep-red-led/
http://shop.stevesleds.com/LUXEON-ES-3-Watt-LEDs_c27.htm
http://www.rapidled.com/philips-luxeon-rebel-es-660nm-deep-red-led/
Would this work?
Would this work?
I'm in the build stage of a standard 120 reef. My plans for a ATS revolve around 2 used 24" t5 fixtures I have from my old tank. I was planning on constructing a glass box 6"x4"x24" with 2, 1" bulkheads on the bottom for the drain and a1" bulkhead on the side for the slot pipe. The screen would be about 4" x22" exposed to the light. I will try to block the light to the pipe and first 1/2" of screen. This box would have a t5 fixture on either side and be mounted above tank in the canopy across the depth of the tank on one end. I would run my return through the ats which could be as much as 1200gph but can be dialed back as I will have a T back to the fuge. Does this sound reasonable? Any tips? Is the screen big enough for 2 cubes, 4x4" nori and 1/2 tsp. of pellets/day?
Thanks
Dave
Would this work?
I'm in the build stage of a standard 120 reef. My plans for a ATS revolve around 2 used 24" t5 fixtures I have from my old tank. I was planning on constructing a glass box 6"x4"x24" with 2, 1" bulkheads on the bottom for the drain and a1" bulkhead on the side for the slot pipe. The screen would be about 4" x22" exposed to the light. I will try to block the light to the pipe and first 1/2" of screen. This box would have a t5 fixture on either side and be mounted above tank in the canopy across the depth of the tank on one end. I would run my return through the ats which could be as much as 1200gph but can be dialed back as I will have a T back to the fuge. Does this sound reasonable? Any tips? Is the screen big enough for 2 cubes, 4x4" nori and 1/2 tsp. of pellets/day?
Thanks
Dave
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Scrubbers are primarily based on feeding now, the water volume guideline went by the wayside a few years back.
12 sq in of screen, lit on both side, per cube of food fed per day. So a 4x22 screen would be roughly 7-8 cubes/day, are you going to be feeding that much?
12 sq in of screen, lit on both side, per cube of food fed per day. So a 4x22 screen would be roughly 7-8 cubes/day, are you going to be feeding that much?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
No there is no problem. It's just won't grow the exciting (and more easily harvested) hair algae.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
The cube-equivalent is defined as any ONE of the following:
1 frozen cube
10 pinches of flake food
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food
3.25 mL of liquid coral food
1 frozen cube
10 pinches of flake food
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food
3.25 mL of liquid coral food
ug.mac
New member
I'm new to ATS. In fact I only had mine up and running for less than two weeks.
My tank is 20 gallon nano SPS dominated, scrubber mat measures 5.5"x9". I adopted waterfall design since I don't have a large enough area on the side of my sump for a decent sized upper flow scrubber. I use Eheim 1000 pump for flow and I set the intake to 2/3 position for now. Bulb is 15w 2700k CFL flood. I also ordered 10w LED grow light.
Attached photo is what mat look like today. I think growth was decent since I just cleaned it completely last Wednesday. I feed my fishes once per day with small pinch of pellets, twice a week I feed all my corals with mixed coral food. I'm yet to see any dark green algae to grow on the mat, but I still noticed a big difference on dust algae growth in display tank.
I'm hoping ATS can help to build a more natural ecosystem than carbon dosing. I don't have much algae growth in my tank because I use to dose vinegar, for the same reason most of my SPS have lost their vibrance colour. I don't know why I think growing algae is less aggressive on stripping nutrition than bacteria but I can use algae growth as indicator of N/P in the water better than test kits.
Happy reefing![emoji1]
My tank is 20 gallon nano SPS dominated, scrubber mat measures 5.5"x9". I adopted waterfall design since I don't have a large enough area on the side of my sump for a decent sized upper flow scrubber. I use Eheim 1000 pump for flow and I set the intake to 2/3 position for now. Bulb is 15w 2700k CFL flood. I also ordered 10w LED grow light.
Attached photo is what mat look like today. I think growth was decent since I just cleaned it completely last Wednesday. I feed my fishes once per day with small pinch of pellets, twice a week I feed all my corals with mixed coral food. I'm yet to see any dark green algae to grow on the mat, but I still noticed a big difference on dust algae growth in display tank.
I'm hoping ATS can help to build a more natural ecosystem than carbon dosing. I don't have much algae growth in my tank because I use to dose vinegar, for the same reason most of my SPS have lost their vibrance colour. I don't know why I think growing algae is less aggressive on stripping nutrition than bacteria but I can use algae growth as indicator of N/P in the water better than test kits.
Happy reefing![emoji1]
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Welcome!
That's a pretty good start for 2 weeks, it normally takes 3-6 weeks for a scrubber to really get growing thick and green. Cleanings for the first month or so should be gentle, just rub with fingertips under slow running room temp tap water. Don't ever scrub it completely clean, and for the first month, don't scrape - you want to encourage GHA to seed the screen.
Your flow is going to decrease over time, I used the Eheim 1000 pumps for a while and they start out good but they don't have much power against a head pressure. Neither do Cobalt MJ1200s. But, you don't have a big tank so that is less of an issue.
On that, just a note: screens are sized based on feeding, not on volume. Your screen is 40+ sq in, so that's sized for roughly 3 cubes/day, if it was double-sided. But I'm guessing it's single sided so that's 1.5 cubes/day, and if under-flow, maybe 1 cube/day. Just clarifying that so that you know where you are at. 1 cube/day screen capacity for a 20g system is probably about right.
Let me know if I misunderstood anything - looks like a good scrubber!
Switching to LEDs - what light did you get? Post a link.
hkgar
Active member
Have I read that the desired Kelvin for the ATS is 2700 LED.
Something like this:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_209679-4392...l=1¤tURL=?Ntt=led+light+bulb&facetInfo=
correct?
Something like this:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_209679-4392...l=1¤tURL=?Ntt=led+light+bulb&facetInfo=
correct?
jedimasterben
LED world domination!
No, you want 660nm red mixed with a little violet (or royal blue). Warm white LEDs will work at reduced efficiency.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
The K rating for LED does not equate to the K rating for CFLs when it comes to algae scrubbers. That is mainly for human perception & color rendering.
ninja'd by a Jedi.
ninja'd by a Jedi.
ug.mac
New member
Thank you for all that info. I was going to ask these things you have already posted in your reply. lol
I ordered the light off eBay, it's a 2w x5 bulb including three 660nm and two 560nm. I also modified an old PAR30 bulb by swapping all the 6000K with 4000K neutral white, but light spectrum still not ideal as well as intensity even without optics so that's why you see that big CFL in the picture.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
When you are using LED, you don't want to use whites at all. You want to use 660nm Deep Reds, primarily. If you want to use any other colors, you can supplement with something in the Deep Violet (not UV) to Royal Blue range, but you don't need much - maybe one of those for every 6 or 10 DRs.
IMO the issue with anything < 660nm and > 445 nm is that these LEDs generally have a higher intensity at a given current than 660s or <450s and that tends to cause photosaturation when you use too many or drive them at too high of a current. 660s and violet-range LEDs while they are not as visually intense still put out a lot of energy, but it is more useable by the algae. Spectra that are not as useable, and also at high intensity, seems to cause issues.
IMO the issue with anything < 660nm and > 445 nm is that these LEDs generally have a higher intensity at a given current than 660s or <450s and that tends to cause photosaturation when you use too many or drive them at too high of a current. 660s and violet-range LEDs while they are not as visually intense still put out a lot of energy, but it is more useable by the algae. Spectra that are not as useable, and also at high intensity, seems to cause issues.
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