Algae Scrubber Basics

[Spar]

@Spar I don't know for sure why you would be having a tough time getting the growth started. Pics?

well, i am sure a big part of it is that I am not feeding much as I have no fish yet. only ~.5 cube per day, yet I have the screen sized for 4 cubes/day.

i also only recently added sufficient lighting. still waiting on my LED's from Steve's LED's.

question: even though I am not feeding much, I still have NO3 of 10ppm+ and PO4 of .55ppm; shouldn't that cause the quick algae growth regardless of whether I feed at all or not? i.e. isn't that the primary drawl for the algae?

 

[karimwassef]

for a slanted screen (sunlit) in a greenhouse, would it be better to have a rigid slanted base (an acrylic sheet) or an open hole base (like eggcrate)?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would say a rigid sheet

 

[SantaMonica]

are solar ats efective? im planning doing a solar ats some one know were i can get info about solar ats

Just google "solar powered algae scrubber".

for a slanted screen (sunlit) in a greenhouse, would it be better to have a rigid slanted base (an acrylic sheet) or an open hole base (like eggcrate)?

You need a base, or else the water will fall through. But many people have done verticals.

the stuff seems to have gone pale. Am i blasting it to oblivion or not giving it enough light?

Probably.

I still have NO3 of 10ppm+ and PO4 of .55ppm; shouldn't that cause the quick algae growth regardless of whether I feed at all or not? i.e. isn't that the primary drawl for the algae?

No, ammonia is. When you feed a lot, the fish convert it to ammonia/urea, which is the main food for algae (and also for the algae on your glass).

 

[jason2459]

Wouldn't nitrate nitrogen be preferred over ammonia nitrogen until the nitrate nitrogen becomes depleted?

 

[OllieNZ]

Wouldn't nitrate nitrogen be preferred over ammonia nitrogen until the nitrate nitrogen becomes depleted?

No plants and algae prefer nitrogen in ammonia form as they have to convert nitrate back to ammonia before they can use it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_assimilation

 

[jason2459]

Thanks for the link. According to that NHO3 Nitrate Nitrogen is the main form of N that they take in. Some C:N: P ratio.

"Plants absorb nitrogen from the soil in the form of nitrate (NO3−) and ammonia (NH3). In aerobic soils where*nitrification*can occur, nitrate is usually the predominant form of available nitrogen that is absorbed.[1][2]"

We're also trying to make this as aerobic as possible. We're also talking about a marine based algae and not a terrestrial plant.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17665646


Here's an interesting publication
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...rodj9U5eo2q7jSLEg&sig2=KAl82INqCc12F9O1ES3--A

Conclusion is ammonium doesn't inhibit nitrate uptake like thought especially in the right circumstances. In our application ammonium nitrate is already greatly depleted by bacteria. We're so providing the algae on the screen with lots of air and light for as perfect environment to grow. Nitrate will be the main form of nitrogen uptake. But more research can be done.

 

[OllieNZ]

A planted aquarium won't see a traditional cycle as the plants will uptake the ammonia for preference and plants will also respond much quicker to ammonia spikes than the bacteria can.
If you reread the article it just says nitrate is the most common form of nitrogen available not the preferred form.

 

[jason2459]

A planted aquarium won't see a traditional cycle as the plants will uptake the ammonia for preference and plants will also respond much quicker to ammonia spikes than the bacteria can.
If you reread the article it just says nitrate is the most common form of nitrogen available not the preferred form.

I'm not arguing preference as I have no idea and haven't seen the research on it and the one I did says more research is needed as it's not as preferred as expected. I'm questioning the amount of ammonia vs. nitrate taken up by the algae in our systems. Our systems not being freshwater or saltwater planted tanks. We should have extremely low amounts of ammonia in our system and should be undetectable because we have a large amount of nitrifying bacteria. We should have some detectable amounts of nitrate and phosphates. Even those people striving for ULNS will eventually dose nitrate and phosphate as they become limited.

In implementing Algae scrubbers of some type or a refugium for macro algae of some type we also try and provide enough light and water flow to allow for a very aerobic environment.

Both those scenarios to me would mean a lot more nitrate uptake and we really don't care about the ammonia uptake of the algae as it would be very minimal. If we did care then we haven't properly established our tanks. I wouldn't suggest someone dose ammonia or ammonium nitrate to their tank to promote algae growth but maybe someone has.

 

[fishbox]

What are pros and cons of waterfall vs upflow ATS?

 

[OllieNZ]

I'm not arguing preference as I have no idea and haven't seen the research on it and the one I did says more research is needed as it's not as preferred as expected. I'm questioning the amount of ammonia vs. nitrate taken up by the algae in our systems. Our systems not being freshwater or saltwater planted tanks. We should have extremely low amounts of ammonia in our system and should be undetectable because we have a large amount of nitrifying bacteria. We should have some detectable amounts of nitrate and phosphates. Even those people striving for ULNS will eventually dose nitrate and phosphate as they become limited.

In implementing Algae scrubbers of some type or a refugium for macro algae of some type we also try and provide enough light and water flow to allow for a very aerobic environment.

Both those scenarios to me would mean a lot more nitrate uptake and we really don't care about the ammonia uptake of the algae as it would be very minimal. If we did care then we haven't properly established our tanks. I wouldn't suggest someone dose ammonia or ammonium nitrate to their tank to promote algae growth but maybe someone has.

There are off the shelf aquarium ferts do use ammonia in some form or another as a source of N but even in the eyes of a planted tank hobbyist deliberately adding ammonia is not the done thing more due to the potential impact on live stock than anything else.
I'm not really sure what you're asking?

Will the algae uptake ammonia as a source of N? Yes
If there is insufficient ammonia to meet the N needs will the algae turn to nitrate as a source of N? Yes
Even though the algae is using nitrate it will still take up ammonia if it becomes available. Our well lit aerobic environment that we provide the algae with will have very little bearing whether there is ammonia available in the water we are supplying the scrubber with but if ammonia becomes present the algae will use it and will react to its presence much quicker than the bacteria can.

 

[jalisco]

Hello all,

I just wrapped up a consult that had me traveling for months which delayed the setup of my tank. I'm trying to plan my plumbing now.

I have a 45 gallon oceanic tech tank with center overflow. I've read that the 70g TT has a 650 gpm overflow but others said 800 gpm and I've found no info on the 45g. I bought an MP10wES to overcome the overflow's limitations as I plan on having some sweet sweet SPS.

Originally I was thinking the overflow would directly feed my Turbo L2 (with emergency bypass of course) so I could keep things simple and only have one pump in my sump.
Next I contemplated a dedicated return pump, sized ats pump and a third pump to run a skimmer when issues arise or when the ats lights are off. Looking at the 45g TT's stand I don't believe I can get a sump to accommodate three pumps.

Because I'm a sucker for shiny new objects I bought the Vectra M1 and planned on wying off the return to feed the ats and DT. If I install ball valves post wye fitting will that allow me to dial in the 35gph/linear inch of screen and still put the most gph my overflow will permit into the DT?

I plan on using my phone to put the tank in feed mode when I remove the ats screen for cleaning. This should allow me to close the ball valve pre ATS and not overwhelm my overflow.

What do you guys think? I am I on the right path or...? Always appreciate your input.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have to read my Vectra instruction manual, does the "feed mode" shut the pump down completely, or does it just reduce the flow way down?

 

[jalisco]

I believe it either slows it way down or you can set how low it goes.

 

[fishbox]

What are pros and cons of waterfall vs upflow ATS?

No one? Just wondering what the preferred method is and why?

 

[jason2459]

There are off the shelf aquarium ferts do use ammonia in some form or another as a source of N but even in the eyes of a planted tank hobbyist deliberately adding ammonia is not the done thing more due to the potential impact on live stock than anything else.
I'm not really sure what you're asking?

Will the algae uptake ammonia as a source of N? Yes
If there is insufficient ammonia to meet the N needs will the algae turn to nitrate as a source of N? Yes
Even though the algae is using nitrate it will still take up ammonia if it becomes available. Our well lit aerobic environment that we provide the algae with will have very little bearing whether there is ammonia available in the water we are supplying the scrubber with but if ammonia becomes present the algae will use it and will react to its presence much quicker than the bacteria can.

I was/am doubting the statement that algae in our tank mainly uptakes ammonia. I also question the ability for algae to out compete bacteria in our tanks.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

One could make the argument that algae actually can fuel bacteria. You could also argue that because of this, there is a possible symbiotic algae-bacteria relationship.

 

[jason2459]

I can see it working together in my tank where I dose a carbon source and harvest algae. I've been getting a good amount of bacteria growing in the inlet pipe feeding the ATS and the top of the screen that's in the pipe and is brushed off every time I pull it out.

 

[SantaMonica]

We should have extremely low amounts of ammonia in our system and should be undetectable because we have a large amount of nitrifying bacteria

When fish eat and pee, you get pure ammonia/urea that enters the water and travels to your glass before it hits any biofilms.

What are pros and cons of waterfall vs upflow ATS?

Waterfall: needs space above; can overflow; matts down after 14 days or so; can attach directly to overflow.

Upflow: needs no space above; can't overflow; does not matt down and can grow much longer; does not use overflow.

 

[Crusinjimbo]

Fishbox, I've tried both, upflow and waterfall, as well as a 30 degree slanted single sided. Space constraints in the sump drove these configuration attempts. All worked reasonably well but the upflow was the most difficult to service and requires an air supply to create the vertical bubble flow. Waterfall was most productive but takes valuable space above the sump. Evaluate your space available for your application and configure accordingly.