Algae Scrubber Basics

So you have 2 4" screens there, 8" total, x35 = 280 GPH total. You originally had 1 4" screen so you only needed 140 GPH. 14 turns per hour seems plenty to me.

The system I was running had a 20" wide screen pumping 433 GPH on a 125. I fixed the piping problem and now I have 760 GPH on a 125, or 6 turns/hour. I also have a Koralia 4 and 2 3's and 200+ # LR. I would hardly think that your problem is not a high enough turnover rate. So I'm still missing what your concern or problem is. Were you not getting enough screen growth? You lights are very close, and this could be the issue - too intense (heat is not the issue)

Refer to this thread/post for my flow fix

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18518184&postcount=37

EDIT I have not had a problem with that system at 433 GPH, except for high phosphates. I did the flow fix to see if that makes a difference. The screen is already showing better growth.

Well, It's hard to estimate the flow over the original screen. I didn't know what the head pressure on the pump was, but gut feeling was it just wasn't enough. And more than that, the DT was growing algae like a poorly attended sump, in short corals have begun dieing, and PH dropping, (ie a buildup of CO2 which I attribute to low turnover.) Thus I've beefed it up. Sucker's flowing now!

I'll report back. I just think these things have to be tuned to the system. The basic rules that are accepted in these systems are very flexible. Size of screen, par, and flow are all variable that need to be tuned to the system they are on. Let's use the liferaft to get off the sinking ship, but if it's too small, let's not sink in the raft!

Don't worry I'll report back my findings.
Aaron
 
Well, It's hard to estimate the flow over the original screen. I didn't know what the head pressure on the pump was, but gut feeling was it just wasn't enough. And more than that, the DT was growing algae like a poorly attended sump, in short corals have begun dieing, and PH dropping, (ie a buildup of CO2 which I attribute to low turnover.) Thus I've beefed it up. Sucker's flowing now!

I'll report back. I just think these things have to be tuned to the system. The basic rules that are accepted in these systems are very flexible. Size of screen, par, and flow are all variable that need to be tuned to the system they are on. Let's use the liferaft to get off the sinking ship, but if it's too small, let's not sink in the raft!

Don't worry I'll report back my findings.
Aaron

If you feel like its not getting enough flow, swap the pump for a Maxijet 1200. They are really cheap. Really cool scrubber otherwise!! Like Floyd said... You may have a problem with lights being too close. Lower wattage bulb maybe?...
 
Aaron thats a great little scrubber for a ten gal !

i am planning a much bigger one for my system but your configuration is very doable on a larger scale.

This is a great thread, got a LOT of ideas, and information from it. Water turnover does seem to be key to the degree of success. Plus size of screen and lighting.

One question, better for a number of scrubbers or one major one for a system? I am thinking of a small one for larvae grow-out, which is located away from the brood stock tanks.
 
Got a question for you guys. Sorry if it has been asked before... I currently add phytoplankton and oyster feast (no plug intended) to my reef tank and was wondering if anyone supplements their coral feedings when using an ATS.

I've read ATS provide good things for corals and I know they grow Pods, worms, etc., and I know you can also drop the screen in the tank to feed the fish, but can I eliminate or deduce the amount of phytoplankton and oyster feast I feed since the corals will get some food from the screen?
 
Aaron thats a great little scrubber for a ten gal !

i am planning a much bigger one for my system but your configuration is very doable on a larger scale.

This is a great thread, got a LOT of ideas, and information from it. Water turnover does seem to be key to the degree of success. Plus size of screen and lighting.

One question, better for a number of scrubbers or one major one for a system? I am thinking of a small one for larvae grow-out, which is located away from the brood stock tanks.

If you have a separate system for the grow out, then I'd keep it isolated and have it's own scrubber, skimmer, sump etc.
 
Just a quick update:

I washed my screen of the solid brown slimy / hairy algae off on Friday. Friday was exactly day 1 of week 2 of operation.

As of yesterday 2 days after washing the brown stuff off, the screen is turning a nice solid green color. It's much slower than the brown stuff, but it's coming in. I've reduced the time my halides are on by an hour, reduced feedings to every other day. And haven't touched the timer on the ATS. I have a lot of HA coming in inside the tank, so right now I'm trying to simply stunt the New HA growth inside the tank, and slow down the growth of the existing HA.

I may cut my halides down even more to speed up the ATS growth. My mix of SPS, LPS, and softies are all doing awesome. Clams are great, and anemone is great. So, I don't want to disrupt them too much by reducing the lights too much, but, I need to get the HA under control.
 
Just a quick update:

I washed my screen of the solid brown slimy / hairy algae off on Friday. Friday was exactly day 1 of week 2 of operation.

As of yesterday 2 days after washing the brown stuff off, the screen is turning a nice solid green color. It's much slower than the brown stuff, but it's coming in. I've reduced the time my halides are on by an hour, reduced feedings to every other day. And haven't touched the timer on the ATS. I have a lot of HA coming in inside the tank, so right now I'm trying to simply stunt the New HA growth inside the tank, and slow down the growth of the existing HA.

I may cut my halides down even more to speed up the ATS growth. My mix of SPS, LPS, and softies are all doing awesome. Clams are great, and anemone is great. So, I don't want to disrupt them too much by reducing the lights too much, but, I need to get the HA under control.

A day blackout on the DT may kick start the ATS big time for you. Be sure to keep the ATS light schedule as normal 18 on 6 off...

Although you may just wait... And things alone...
 
I agree srusso. If it's not broke, don't fix it. The fact my SPS are looking awesome, means the current processes are eliminating phosphate sufficient enough for SPS to grow and not be stunted. In 2 days, several of my SPS have new growth on them.

Killing the lights, may cause the current algae in the DT to stop taking in phosphates (or reduce their capacity) and may actually end up with a Phosphate spike in the tank.

The SPS might be o.k. but, I don't know how clams would react to that.

Nothing safe happens fast in the reef world, so, I'll let it go as is... I'll have to hand pluck some of the HA this week as it gets long enough for me to grab.
 
Ok first of all thank you sooo much for putting this together. I am currently planning out a ~500-600 gallon system and am really looking forward to using this over a huge refugium. My sump, we already made is just slightly larger than 6x2x2 and will incorporate a DSB and a sump area for a carbon reactor and skimmer(if these will even be needed). I will still have a small fuge with some xenia but from my understanding chaeto and caulerpa will eventually get starved out from the ATS? Also I didnt read all 31 pages so sorry if I missed it but is anyone using a ATS on a larger setup? My DT is 8x3x2 and the sump, as mentioned earlier, comes out to about 200 gallons plus about a 50 gallon fuge.

This all stems from the slow take over of hair algae in my temporary 125 gallon which is housing my corals/fish for now.
 
First set one up on your 125 and see if it fixes your problem. It's better to solve your problems when water changes are 25 gallons than when they are 100 gallons. Set up a quick ATS and see if you can get the problem with the 125 under control, then scale up from there. Sounds like you have a unique opportunity to get things right before you go big.

Cheers!
Aaron
 
Ok first of all thank you sooo much for putting this together. I am currently planning out a ~500-600 gallon system and am really looking forward to using this over a huge refugium. My sump, we already made is just slightly larger than 6x2x2 and will incorporate a DSB and a sump area for a carbon reactor and skimmer(if these will even be needed). I will still have a small fuge with some xenia but from my understanding chaeto and caulerpa will eventually get starved out from the ATS? Also I didnt read all 31 pages so sorry if I missed it but is anyone using a ATS on a larger setup? My DT is 8x3x2 and the sump, as mentioned earlier, comes out to about 200 gallons plus about a 50 gallon fuge.

This all stems from the slow take over of hair algae in my temporary 125 gallon which is housing my corals/fish for now.

For a system that large I'd say you should read the whole thread twice! JK
But really, research, research, research...design, plan, design... Then plan again, then ask us... Can't wait to see what you come up with!
 
Ok, due to size constraints the best I can get my light's are 3 to 3 1/2" away. I am going to have a problem???
 
For a system that large I'd say you should read the whole thread twice! JK
But really, research, research, research...design, plan, design... Then plan again, then ask us... Can't wait to see what you come up with!

Lol I know I got to about page 8 so far. The house should be done may 4th so I have till then to research away. I think I will give the 125 a shot and see how that goes though like y'all suggested. More questions to come I'm sure. :)
 
Well, It's hard to estimate the flow over the original screen. I didn't know what the head pressure on the pump was, but gut feeling was it just wasn't enough. And more than that, the DT was growing algae like a poorly attended sump, in short corals have begun dieing, and PH dropping, (ie a buildup of CO2 which I attribute to low turnover.) Thus I've beefed it up. Sucker's flowing now!

I'll report back. I just think these things have to be tuned to the system. The basic rules that are accepted in these systems are very flexible. Size of screen, par, and flow are all variable that need to be tuned to the system they are on. Let's use the liferaft to get off the sinking ship, but if it's too small, let's not sink in the raft!

Don't worry I'll report back my findings.
Aaron

I have a question, in looking at your tank it looks very bright. I don't know if that's just the camera effect, but what LEDs are you using, how many, etc? Also, how long have you been running them on your tank, that is, did you start with something else and switch to LED recently? I'm trying to help determine if is was an inadequate ATS that is leading to your corals dying or something else. The reason I ask is that in my research for my own DIY LED fixture, I found that most people build their LED fixture too strong and kill off their corals. Excessive algae growth in the DT when running a scrubber could indicate too much light. Also the declining pH could be something different also. If your tank is open-top and there's enough surface agitation, O2 exchange is not your problem, something else is happening, and I don't think your first scrubber build was inadequate.

Determining flow rate is exactly this easy: Take your pump and piping out, and fill a sink with water. Place the pump under water at the same level under water as it is in your tank. Turn it on. Fill a pitcher with the water from the pump outlet (the same outlet level that feeds your screen). Time how long it takes to fill the pitcher. If you want to simulate the scrubber flow rate, use your slot tube and have your screen inserted and fill a pitcher from the flow off the screen (you may need a larger pitcher for that). Repeat this process about a dozen times, recording the time each time. Average them out and covert to GPH. For instance, if you use a 1/2 gallon pitcher and it takes 3 second to fill it, then you have 3 sec/0.5 gal -> invert it -> 0.5 gal/3 sec = 1 gal/6 sec then multiply by 3600 seconds/hour and you get 600 GPH.

This will tell you if your scrubber flow is your problem. Divide by screen width and if you're over 30 GPH, flow is definitely not your problem. Even if you're at 20 GPH, flow is not your problem in the short-term (it should be corrected for the long term, but it is better than nothing). For reference I was running a full-blown 125 reef on 18 GPH/in until recently.
 
I'm using a DIY XP-G LED array. 6 Leds 3 CW and 3 RB. Before this I was running a Aqua C remora skimmer, But the bubbles never reached up above the collection tube, so it really only oxygenated the water, I don't think it really ever skimmed anything. All the corals were Growing out well. But the second week of the ATS in the pitcher and the algae was out of control, and the corals were shrinking away because of the algae. Plus a new diatom bloom came about. Feeding any less would kill my Clown, so that's not an option.

I'm sure it was a flow problem with the original ATS and let's just leave it at that. I'm happy with the new scrubber, and barring the ridiculous, I don't think you can oversize a scrubber.

I don't think that lighting can be too close either. Unless you're talking about heat. Photons don't really care if they are 1" from the screen or 4" from the screen, and compared to sunlight the amount of photons a CFL can generate is laughable. So if you control the heat, you can put the lights right on the screen if you'd like. My new design protects from heat with the water bottle light shields.

Let's just hope this works. :beer:
 
If you go back a few pages and find the wiki file on algae lighting requirements, you'll see that the sun emits 80,000 lux and algae grows best in 2,500 to 10,000 lux, and photoinhibition sets in at 15,000 lux. As far as the CFLs being too close, the anecdotal evicdence in and of itself does not suggest either way that heat or intensity is the cause of hindered algae growth when the lamps are too close. However, when you consider that

1) algae grows better in warm water than in cold water
2) HP LEDs have been shown to 'burn' the algae
3) the wiki article regarding intensity
4) water cascading over the algae will keep it at relatively the same temperature regardless of proximity of light source (within reason)

then photoinhibition due to high light intensity due to close proximity of the light source becomes a more probable cause of low algae growth. You have to remember that intensity is an inverse square function. If you have the CFLs 4 inches away, then move them 2 inches closer, by halving the distance you quadruple the intensity. So it is true that the photons don't care how far away they are from the screen, but the algae cares how concentrated the photons are. So I agree with you that CFLs cannot generate the intensity of natural sunlight. But we only want 1/8 of sunlight at a maximum, and with a lower output source in such close proximity you actually can get it too intense for what the algae likes.

This is the significant difference between growing plants and growing algae. This application of light to grow algae is very specific, you will not easily find another application which requires the light source to be so close. We deal with a set of rather unique and unusual rules with the ATS, so you have to be careful when making comparisons that other factors are taken into consideration. There are general guidelines that are somewhat flexible, which makes it great because many designs will work just fine, but there are also more firm guidelines that cannot be exceeded without resulting in a significant loss of function. To this point, the modern aquarium ATS is very much an infant in this regard IMO, because no one has taken the time to do a truly scientific study of the effect of each component of the system as a whole. What we have right now is a quite a bit of real-world results that have produced a general design that is highly effective. Finding all the 'sweet spots' would probably increase efficiency a little bit, but probably not enough to justify spending thousands of dollars just to figure out how to get 5% more growth. But it would be nice to know the exact rates of growth given a set of conditions, so that you can size an ATS perfectly, and so that you know, for instance, exactly how much load one square inch of screen can handle. So far, that guideline is based on real-world experimentation that has proven to be true. End of rant!!!

The bottom line here is that you don't want the lights too close. I'm not saying that absolutely this is your problem. I'm just trying to use a process of elimination to help determine the issue with your tank.

If all thing were going fine over a long period of time (same lights & lighting schedule, same feeding schedule, same corals, same fish, etc) and then you cut out the skimmer and added the ATS, and the skimmer wasn't actually skimming, then you might have had a drop in O2 that caused an algae outbreak. However, like I said before, it looks like you have plenty of flow in the tank with 2 power heads, and low O2 exchange just seems less likely. If this happened very recently, then you may consider snow melt runoff. In Iowa, when the snow melts and all that salt and grime gets pushed down the system to the water treatment plant, our water quality goes through the floor. It happens every year. Our LFS in fact does a very large PWC on their 600 gallon tank every year right before the snow starts melting, and then leave the tank alone for about 2-3 months. They do this because one year they lost almost everything in the tank due to water contamination, even after filtering the water with and RO/DI system. I have actually had the exact same issue in one of my tanks. My RO/DI read 0 TDS, but even after switching my carbon and DI beads, the 'pure' water read 0.09 on my Hanna Phosphate photometer. I had provided 10g of topoff that had something in it that caused a nutrient spike and dino outbreak, and I almost lost 4-5 corals.

A long term stability followed by an outbreak of algae and diatoms after removal of an oxygenating skimmer sounds like a good explanation, I'm just trying to think if there could be any other cause. Generally, any change in the system will cause a new set-point, and that's why I suggest that, if at all possible, you get the ATS established before pulling any equipment out. I guess at this point you could add the skimmer back in to see if that eliminates the algae in the DT and raises the pH back up, and wait untl the ATS matures to remove it again.
 
OK maybe this has been mentioned, but either way can the first post be edited?
1 sq. inch of screen per gallon with bulbs on BOTH sides
(10 x 10 = 100 sq. inches = 100 gallons)
2 sq. inches of screen per gallon, if lit on just ONE side.
(10 x 10 = 50 sq. inches = 50 gallons)
(Horizontal) - (can only be lit from one side, for obvious reasons)
4 sq. inches of screen per gallon
(10 x 10 = 40 sq. inches = 40 gallons)

I know my math 10x10 is always 100.
(10 in x 10 in = 100 sq inches / 2 sq inches per gallon = 50 gallons)
(10 in x 10 in = 100 sq inches / 4 sq inches per gallon = 25 gallons)
or is it
(10 in x 10 in = 100 sq inches / 2.5 sq inches per gallon = 40 gallons)
Vertical - 2 square inches of lighted screen per gallon
Lighting both sides
10 in x 10 in x 2 sides = 200 sq inches / 2 sq inches per gallon = 100 gallons
Lighting one side
10 in x 10 in x 1 side = 100 sq inches / 2 sq inches per gallon = 50 gallons
However this maybe make even more sense (at least it does to me)

I am now off to finish reading the whole thread and thanks to all who have contributed.
 
Holy cow Floyd, I appreciate your trying to nail down the problems with this system, but if I may quote you from a previous post, "all this for a 10 gallon?"

Seriously, the problem was the flow. I had originally reduced the flow to drop the noise of the ATS. I saw problems in my tank from doing this. Those problems included Low pH. I'm sure it's due to two things, 1. Less water turnover through the ATS resulting in less gas exchange. and 2. Having the tank in my basement where CO2 levels are undoubtable higher.

I surmised the problem, and fixed it. While doing so I've increased the screen size in square inches and added light to grow the algae more effectively. It's worked. The screens are three days old now, and covered with brown algae. What can be said more?! It's working, so we'll see what happens.

To counter the above two items that caused my pH to fall, i've done a large water change in the system. This added more buffering capacity to the water, and I increased the flow through the new ATS. So all is well.

I don't want to sound argumentative, I just really feel bad that you're putting so much effort into my little project. I'm convinced they work. I understand that finding out the appropriate flow/square inches would really help someone that had limited space, but since I'm pretty unlimited, I'm willing to give this a try.

As to LED's being too bright to grow algae, well, tell that to my display tank. Doesn't seem to be burning them up at all. And plenty of turf algae grow just fine in the 80K Lux of sunshine in tidepools. I truely doubt you'd get enough out of these CFL's to inhibit growth if you coated the outside of the bulb directly with algae.
 
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