karimwassef
Active member
It's the titles of figures 4 and 5
I have a 3 gallon phyto container that I'l redoing into a 5 gallon.
My DT is 380gal and my system volume is 660gal. I feed about 10ml a day.
Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
It's the titles of figures 4 and 5
I have a 3 gallon phyto container that I'l redoing into a 5 gallon.
My DT is 380gal and my system volume is 660gal. I feed about 10ml a day.
OllieNZ
New member
Is that 10ml of miracle grow into the 3gal phyto container?
karimwassef
Active member
The miracle grow dose is very small. I mix a teaspoon into the 3 gal container. That lasts the complete culture long. Every month, when I reset the culture (take half the mix out and add water to the container), I'd add another 1/2 teaspoon of miracle grow.
I add 10ml of the extracted phyto to the DT every day... or 60-70ml a week (if I have a busy week).
I add 10ml of the extracted phyto to the DT every day... or 60-70ml a week (if I have a busy week).
OllieNZ
New member
Cool, I'm out tonight (I'm on gmt), I'll run some numbers for you tomorrow.
OllieNZ
New member
Okay, based on a system vol of 660 usgal, phyto system volume of 3 usgal with the addition of 1 teaspoon of miracle grow containing 3.5% ammonium and 20.5% urea.
The levels being added to the phyto system itself would be 16.55ppm of NH4 and 79.26ppm urea.
10ml of phyto solution would provide approx 0.07 ppb of NH4
and 0.3 ppb of urea to your system.
These figures do not take into account the urea and ammonium already taken up by the phyto and/or broken down by bacteria in the phyto system because tbh I've no idea what this would be.
karimwassef
Active member
So I can increase my input by 10,000 x and it will still be ok (from an ammonium and urea perspective)
So my ATS doesn't even register a blip with the phyto I feed.
OllieNZ
New member
That would be my conclusion. Dumping the entire 3gal of phyto into your system was an addition of 0.08ppm of NH4 and like I said, that's before the phyto has used it's share.So I can increase my input by 10,000 x and it will still be ok (from an ammonium and urea perspective)
So my ATS doesn't even register a blip with the phyto I feed.
karimwassef
Active member
oooo.. ok, so how much MG can I add directly to my tank and still go "under the radar" of my ATS?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Photosynthetic organisms can absorb ammonia even during darkness. You might be seeing the phyto doing that when you add it.
OllieNZ
New member
You can use this calculator to work out how much you're adding.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm
It doesn't have miracle grow but 1 teaspoon of miracle grow contains 0.2 of teaspoon of urea and the ammonium equivalent of 0.167 of a teaspoon of ammonium nitrate.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by going under the radar of the ats? If the nutrients are in the water then the ats will use them, which is kinda why people use one.
karimwassef
Active member
I already feed a lot. My ATS is going great.
I have a theory that nutrients are not the enemy. They're actually the key to very fast growth. The problem has always been sufficient export that could handle the mass and not over consume essential elements.
Think of it like a garden hose feeding a pool. The more fresh water you run through it, the better the water. So, the more you push through, the better. The problem has always been that the pool overflows and you have a mess.
The ATS is like a massive sink... A drain that lets you pump as much as you need, and it should keep up. Now, you go from a garden hose to a fire hose, then to residential line, then commercial line... The more, the better. But it's not about the amount of water, it's about how much is flowing through.
The nutrients are like that (in theory). If I can increase the import and export, then I keep a thick soup of energy flowing through, but never getting stuck and turning the tank to muck. If you do enough, it becomes a massive growth machine.
And I think the flow on N, P, and K is the fuel. Massively abundant, but never overflowing...
We'll find out. Just remember, I said it here first!
If it wasn't for the ATS, it couldn't be done...
I have a theory that nutrients are not the enemy. They're actually the key to very fast growth. The problem has always been sufficient export that could handle the mass and not over consume essential elements.
Think of it like a garden hose feeding a pool. The more fresh water you run through it, the better the water. So, the more you push through, the better. The problem has always been that the pool overflows and you have a mess.
The ATS is like a massive sink... A drain that lets you pump as much as you need, and it should keep up. Now, you go from a garden hose to a fire hose, then to residential line, then commercial line... The more, the better. But it's not about the amount of water, it's about how much is flowing through.
The nutrients are like that (in theory). If I can increase the import and export, then I keep a thick soup of energy flowing through, but never getting stuck and turning the tank to muck. If you do enough, it becomes a massive growth machine.
And I think the flow on N, P, and K is the fuel. Massively abundant, but never overflowing...
We'll find out. Just remember, I said it here first!
If it wasn't for the ATS, it couldn't be done...
OllieNZ
New member
I already feed a lot. My ATS is going great.
I have a theory that nutrients are not the enemy. They're actually the key to very fast growth. The problem has always been sufficient export that could handle the mass and not over consume essential elements.
Think of it like a garden hose feeding a pool. The more fresh water you run through it, the better the water. So, the more you push through, the better. The problem has always been that the pool overflows and you have a mess.
The ATS is like a massive sink... A drain that lets you pump as much as you need, and it should keep up. Now, you go from a garden hose to a fire hose, then to residential line, then commercial line... The more, the better. But it's not about the amount of water, it's about how much is flowing through.
The nutrients are like that (in theory). If I can increase the import and export, then I keep a thick soup of energy flowing through, but never getting stuck and turning the tank to muck. If you do enough, it becomes a massive growth machine.
And I think the flow on N, P, and K is the fuel. Massively abundant, but never overflowing...
We'll find out. Just remember, I said it here first!
If it wasn't for the ATS, it couldn't be done...
Coming from a background in planted aquaria this is something I possibly understand better than most but the more I learn about saltwater aquaria, reefs in particular the more the unique differences and challenges between the two become apparent.
Plants are simple (in theory), provide non limiting nutrients (ideally from inorganic sources in an aquatic environment, kno3, k2po4, co2 etc) ensure good distribution of said nutrients and use light as the accelerator. Carry out large frequent water changes to remove metabolic waste and other organics and you're there. Check out the Estimative Index (EI) method
While photosynthesis is an important part of keeping corals it's not the only thing that they require to thrive. As you say the ability to provide them the food they require and keeping the system 'clean' enough for them is considerably more challenging in so many ways. In some cases more npk may be needed but I don't believe that this is the sole answer.
The other thing you need to consider is how the types of nutrients you're delivering will impact the system. Urea for example is a very potent source of N but in order to unlock the N it must be metabolised by bacteria which in turn increases the biological oxygen demand on the system. NO3 on the other hand can be directly taken up without any pre processing. So despite having to use less urea to provide the same amount of N as NO3, at the levels dosed the NO3 has virtually nil impact on the system as a whole.
For a planted fresh water aquarium the choice of which nutrient is the preferred way to deliver N is pretty obvious. In a reef tank however things are not so clear cut as bacteria themselves can also from an important food source. So the more I learn the more factors I find that bear considering.
karimwassef
Active member
I absolutely believe that oxygenation is another key component. To process the nutrient flow, the tank needs to breathe deeply ...
So - simply put - Eat a lot (feed), take your building blocks (Ca, Alk, Mg), breathe deeply (oxygenate), circulate extensively (flow), work out hard (light photosynthesis), and extract waste (export), and rest (dark periods)... makes a healthy coral growing machine.
Corals don't have roots though, so they need photosynthetic dinos (zooxanthelle) to turn nutrients into food.
So - simply put - Eat a lot (feed), take your building blocks (Ca, Alk, Mg), breathe deeply (oxygenate), circulate extensively (flow), work out hard (light photosynthesis), and extract waste (export), and rest (dark periods)... makes a healthy coral growing machine.
Corals don't have roots though, so they need photosynthetic dinos (zooxanthelle) to turn nutrients into food.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
This is what the scrubber is for. The nutrients that algae consume are the exact things in metabolic waste.
Actually the zoo's only provide energy (i.e., glucose) to the coral; not food. The "real" food is from food particles, such as detritus, pods, etc.
OllieNZ
New member
I was referring to the various waste products the plants themselves produce, and the idea is to remove them as quickly as possible before they start breaking down reducing the organic load on the system.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Do you mean the sugars from the algae? That is a form of natural carbon dosing.
hkgar
Active member
How long is that work out period (photosynthesis)?
jason2459
Well-known member
I drop my water change water since I do about 1% daily it slowly drops it over time. I use muriatic acid added to the saltmix after adding salt to reduce the alkalinity. This allows my limewater dosing to stay on while maintains the calcium levels and is a main way my tanks maintains pH over 7.8.
hkgar
Active member
Just to be clear, Ph over 7.8 or Alk?
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