Algae Scrubber Basics

iced98lx said:
Assuming you have room in your sump and are happy with the possibly spray / weird flow mishaps that can be common in DIY slot pipe designs, sure. Boxing it up makes it much safer IMHO though, and is a nice add on if you can.

Otherwise a piece of cling wrap over the pipe and first few inches of mesh seem to also work..
Click to expand...

This is precisely what I do to prevent side spray, and promote even flow, and yes, it hangs right over one half of my sump, which is a standard 125G tank.
 
hkgar said:
Just to be clear, Ph over 7.8 or Alk?
Click to expand...
Yes, pH over 7.8. Though since separating my limewater dosing from my ATO it's been maintaining over 8.0 pH units with out the need for my CO2 scrubber. I've been dosing limewater 24/7 for about a month or so now. It's been great. I have it dosing at a rate of 1second every 5 minutes with a spectrapure standalone pump. Which is under evaporation rate and allows my ATO to still kick in every 1-2 hours or so.

Alk I want to keep under 11. I have it back down to 10dKH from a peak of 14dKH a few weeks ago due to Murphy taking over maintaining my tank while I was gone for about a week.
 
hkgar said:
How long is that work out period (photosynthesis)?
Click to expand...

I'm probably a little extreme. I run 7am to 10pm full MH and LEDs... with a couple of hours before and after with LEDs only... so 15hrs full, 19hrs partial.

But... no algae... and very rapid coral growth.
 
1 month growth on one side with 30w red/blue growlight.

screen is way oversized for 1 cube a day, probably why growth is not thick and lush

IMG_0523_zpsjrteyjiw.jpg
 
On a side note about 5 days before the picture I upped my hours from 12 hours on/off to the 18/6 recommended.
 
santamonica said:
anyone trying mortar should make sure that no fish are eating algae from the screen, because as the mortar comes off it will be taken away by the algae and possibly eaten. Also of course the screen will then become less rough.



This is one reason why i like 3d printed screens; they don't do this.
Click to expand...


smh
 
I have a complete reef made of artificial concrete. My fish eat off of that "rock" it all the time.

There is only kind of fish that is susceptible to 'breakoff' because of their feeding 'techniques'. I've had all kinds of tangs and surgeonfish. But algae blennies have died due to ingesting bits of small rock.. intestinal blockage.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F2EB4CAB-9453-4DCA-9956-F79BF3E84C73_zpsjjx6mdx8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F2EB4CAB-9453-4DCA-9956-F79BF3E84C73_zpsjjx6mdx8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F2EB4CAB-9453-4DCA-9956-F79BF3E84C73_zpsjjx6mdx8.jpg"/></a>

I think their open mouth rasping does make them more susceptible. In the real reef, rocks are "weathered" by the time algae grows on them. In my case, I think the rock will be safe over time, but I would have spent more time weathering the rockwork myself if I had known this.

Just my personal experience. They're the only ones that have experienced this.
 
Floyd R Turbo said:
smh
Click to expand...
FullBoreReefer said:
Anything is possible I suppose.
Click to expand...
jason2459 said:
shake my head
Click to expand...
karimwassef said:
What's smh?
Click to expand...

My reason for posting that is that honestly, I'm sick of SM's little attacks on things & ideas that aren't either his ideas or his products, while in the same breath promoting his products. See, he does this - he posts some tidbit of information and makes it look like he's just sharing a method anyone can use but what he's really doing is promoting his product or idea, because he doesn't start sharing this information until he has a product in the works and likely patent pending. And that's all well and good but 99.9% of forums don't let you self promote when you make a product and you are not a sponsor, and even when you are a sponsor, you have to keep it to your sponsor sub-forum, and you generally aren't allowed to even link to your sponsor sub-forum in the public arena. SM has always tried to get around this and this is exactly what he is doing here.

Dropping hints that imply mortar screens are dangerous and ineffective is just flat out ridiculous.

He posted something similar elsewhere and here was my reply, to which there has been no answer

---------------------

Properly roughed up canvas that is beneath a mortar layer is plenty rough on it's own accord, and that has been the staple of the waterfall scrubber for years. I don't see that being any different after a sacrificial layer of mortar is applied and then falls off.

Anyone who has ever made a mortar screen (prepared and cured correctly) will tell you that the mortar does not just "flake off" into your tank under flow, and just about the only way that mortar could get pulled off the screen by a fish is if the screen was hanging into the tank, or into a fuge section with fish in it with no protective barrier between the screen and the fish.

So first you tell everyone that the mainstay of scrubbers is "too slick" after you introduce your quartz surfaces. The truth of the matter is that plastic canvas doesn't work well in a submerged situation and your solution works better in that situation, but that doesn't mean canvas is the wrong material for a waterfall scrubber.

Now you are telling everyone, after the introduction of your 3D printed screens, that mortar screens are less effective once the mortar is gone and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants. The former I completely disagree with based on what I stated above. The latter would seem to indicate that we should not be using any sand in our tanks because that might get ingested and cause problems.

So I'll ask the million dollar question that so far no one has asked: What exact 3D printing material are you using, and have you performed any long-term toxin leeching tests to determine reef safe compatibility?

I want to add that this is a 100% legitimate question. I don't have direct personal knowledge of leech testing 3D printed materials (i.e. didn't actually perform tests myself) but I do know a highly experienced and trusted individual who has.

If everything is good, I'm good. It's just a very important question that does deserve an answer.

---------------------

I'll clarify a few things on the mortar screen.

The purpose of the mortar layer is to allow your scrubber to quickly ramp up and start growing a nice thick layer of algae in much shorter period of time - from what I've seen, less than 14 days and you have what I consider significant growth. Now granted that this is not based on a lot of data from a lot of different people, but I've started screens many times and this version started up with lots of GHA attachment a lot faster, and more complete across the screen.

However, the mortar method is not meant to replace the previous method, it is in addition to it, in order to reduce the start-up maturing phase. It actually breaks it up into short-term and long term maturation stages. Since the mortar is a sacrificial layer, you still need to rough up the screen so that you have a long-term effective growth substrate.

Also, the mortar doesn't seem to stick quite as well to a smooth screen, i.e. no scuffing or roughing of any kind, so I would never recommend that, because the long-term screen would likely perform poorly.

What I had been doing prior to the mortar method is scuffing the screen with a wire brush drill bit first (to take the "shine" off the screen) and then roughing it up with a saw blade.

When I made the first mortar screen, I skipped the saw blade stage. The mortar stuck to the screen very well and I put that screen into use after curing and soaking. It still works well but my gut feeling after cleaning it a few times is that the scuffing alone is not quite enough.

The subsequent mortar screens I have made, I've added back in the saw blade stage but I don't spend nearly as much time on that as I used to.

But going back to the mortar flaking off the screen comment, I suppose there is a possibility of ingestion if you were to allow the screen to be in a position where inhabitants could pull clods of algae off the screen. So it's good that such information/concerns are out there so that everyone can be fully aware of any risks involved in using the method.

But, it's sand. So, really, is it THAT much of a concern? For the vast majority, I think no. But if you think you should be worried, don't use mortar. The standby roughed-up plastic canvas works fine, just takes a bit longer to start. No worries.

But when in the same breath he says "anyone using those should be aware" and then says "that's why 3D printed screens are so awesome" this is why I shake my head.

So is all 3D printed material reef safe? Absolutely not. There are some that are not safe, not at all. Are there some that pose only marginal danger? Yes. Kind of like how flexible vinyl hose that we all use leeches toxins into the water (there was an article on this not too long ago) and that we should all be using silicone hose, etc...but really, filtration and water changes take care of a lot of this. But hey, we know , and we know the dangers and are willing to live with that. Even if we don't know about that, it doesn't bother us. Like I'm sure that there are a lot of people who just found out that clear vinyl hose that many use for return line is not 100% reef safe!

So my legitimate question that deserves an answer is similar in nature. What 3D printed material should we all be using, and is it reef safe? Not FDA food safe, because that doesn't equate, not 100%. And the answer might not be one I agree with. But that's because I happen to know someone who has done testing. The question I haven't had answered is, what is the actual level of risk/danger for the materials that actually do leech, but leech only a low amount that would normally be reduced by regular maintenance like water changes and carbon, etc. And what are those toxins?

And just for the record, I have no intention of making a 3D printed screen so I really don't personally care what material it is, I just want it known and to know that it's safe so that when others ask, I can tell them. It's an interesting idea, but I just think that the roughed up canvas screen is just the backbone substrate, and why mess with a good thing. I didn't come up with the mortar screen idea, that was Paul B. I just looked at it as a good addition and immediately shared that with everyone before I even had a bag of mortar in my hands.
 
Last edited:
karimwassef said:
I have a complete reef made of artificial concrete. My fish eat off of that "rock" it all the time.

There is only kind of fish that is susceptible to 'breakoff' because of their feeding 'techniques'. I've had all kinds of tangs and surgeonfish. But algae blennies have died due to ingesting bits of small rock.. intestinal blockage.

I think their open mouth rasping does make them more susceptible. In the real reef, rocks are "weathered" by the time algae grows on them. In my case, I think the rock will be safe over time, but I would have spent more time weathering the rockwork myself if I had known this.

Just my personal experience. They're the only ones that have experienced this.
Click to expand...

There's some good feedback. Thanks for sharing. But again, this is really only an issue if your fish have access to the screen and pull algae off of it along with a chunk of mortar.

IME all the mortar release happens in the sink when you actively scrape the screen and maybe rub and rinse, and it's all tiny sand granules, not large chunks for the most part.

If you run the screen in the sump, a remote location, in an enclosed box, zero concern
 
Floyd R Turbo said:
My reason for posting that is that honestly, I'm sick of SM's little attacks on things & ideas that aren't either his ideas or his products, while in the same breath promoting his products. See, he does this - he posts some tidbit of information and makes it look like he's just sharing a method anyone can use but what he's really doing is promoting his product or idea, because he doesn't start sharing this information until he has a product in the works and likely patent pending. And that's all well and good but 99.9% of forums don't let you self promote when you make a product and you are not a sponsor, and even when you are a sponsor, you have to keep it to your sponsor sub-forum, and you generally aren't allowed to even link to your sponsor sub-forum in the public arena. SM has always tried to get around this and this is exactly what he is doing here.

Dropping hints that imply mortar screens are dangerous and ineffective is just flat out ridiculous.

He posted something similar elsewhere and here was my reply, to which there has been no answer

---------------------

Properly roughed up canvas that is beneath a mortar layer is plenty rough on it's own accord, and that has been the staple of the waterfall scrubber for years. I don't see that being any different after a sacrificial layer of mortar is applied and then falls off.

Anyone who has ever made a mortar screen (prepared and cured correctly) will tell you that the mortar does not just "flake off" into your tank under flow, and just about the only way that mortar could get pulled off the screen by a fish is if the screen was hanging into the tank, or into a fuge section with fish in it with no protective barrier between the screen and the fish.

So first you tell everyone that the mainstay of scrubbers is "too slick" after you introduce your quartz surfaces. The truth of the matter is that plastic canvas doesn't work well in a submerged situation and your solution works better in that situation, but that doesn't mean canvas is the wrong material for a waterfall scrubber.

Now you are telling everyone, after the introduction of your 3D printed screens, that mortar screens are less effective once the mortar is gone and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants. The former I completely disagree with based on what I stated above. The latter would seem to indicate that we should not be using any sand in our tanks because that might get ingested and cause problems.

So I'll ask the million dollar question that so far no one has asked: What exact 3D printing material are you using, and have you performed any long-term toxin leeching tests to determine reef safe compatibility?

I want to add that this is a 100% legitimate question. I don't have direct personal knowledge of leech testing 3D printed materials (i.e. didn't actually perform tests myself) but I do know a highly experienced and trusted individual who has.

If everything is good, I'm good. It's just a very important question that does deserve an answer.

---------------------

I'll clarify a few things on the mortar screen.

The purpose of the mortar layer is to allow your scrubber to quickly ramp up and start growing a nice thick layer of algae in much shorter period of time - from what I've seen, less than 14 days and you have what I consider significant growth. Now granted that this is not based on a lot of data from a lot of different people, but I've started screens many times and this version started up with lots of GHA attachment a lot faster, and more complete across the screen.

However, the mortar method is not meant to replace the previous method, it is in addition to it, in order to reduce the start-up maturing phase. It actually breaks it up into short-term and long term maturation stages. Since the mortar is a sacrificial layer, you still need to rough up the screen so that you have a long-term effective growth substrate.

Also, the mortar doesn't seem to stick quite as well to a smooth screen, i.e. no scuffing or roughing of any kind, so I would never recommend that, because the long-term screen would likely perform poorly.

What I had been doing prior to the mortar method is scuffing the screen with a wire brush drill bit first (to take the "shine" off the screen) and then roughing it up with a saw blade.

When I made the first mortar screen, I skipped the saw blade stage. The mortar stuck to the screen very well and I put that screen into use after curing and soaking. It still works well but my gut feeling after cleaning it a few times is that the scuffing alone is not quite enough.

The subsequent mortar screens I have made, I've added back in the saw blade stage but I don't spend nearly as much time on that as I used to.

But going back to the mortar flaking off the screen comment, I suppose there is a possibility of ingestion if you were to allow the screen to be in a position where inhabitants could pull clods of algae off the screen. So it's good that such information/concerns are out there so that everyone can be fully aware of any risks involved in using the method.

But, it's sand. So, really, is it THAT much of a concern? For the vast majority, I think no. But if you think you should be worried, don't use mortar. The standby roughed-up plastic canvas works fine, just takes a bit longer to start. No worries.

But when in the same breath he says "anyone using those should be aware" and then says "that's why 3D printed screens are so awesome" this is why I shake my head.

So is all 3D printed material reef safe? Absolutely not. There are some that are not safe, not at all. Are there some that pose only marginal danger? Yes. Kind of like how flexible vinyl hose that we all use leeches toxins into the water (there was an article on this not too long ago) and that we should all be using silicone hose, etc...but really, filtration and water changes take care of a lot of this. But hey, we know , and we know the dangers and are willing to live with that. Even if we don't know about that, it doesn't bother us. Like I'm sure that there are a lot of people who just found out that clear vinyl hose that many use for return line is not 100% reef safe!

So my legitimate question that deserves an answer is similar in nature. What 3D printed material should we all be using, and is it reef safe? Not FDA food safe, because that doesn't equate, not 100%. And the answer might not be one I agree with. But that's because I happen to know someone who has done testing. The question I haven't had answered is, what is the actual level of risk/danger for the materials that actually do leech, but leech only a low amount that would normally be reduced by regular maintenance like water changes and carbon, etc. And what are those toxins?

And just for the record, I have no intention of making a 3D printed screen so I really don't personally care what material it is, I just want it known and to know that it's safe so that when others ask, I can tell them. It's an interesting idea, but I just think that the roughed up canvas screen is just the backbone substrate, and why mess with a good thing. I didn't come up with the mortar screen idea, that was Paul B. I just looked at it as a good addition and immediately shared that with everyone before I even had a bag of mortar in my hands.
Click to expand...
5dc001c7ca7169c4731530671712d8d1.jpg
 
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