Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
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karimwassef
Active member
Haven't researched it. It's anecdotal based on my own experience with different scrubbers. Cyano and bacterial sludge can overwhelm a submerged scrubber (plenty of experience with that), but one that's exposed to air seems immune (in the same system). Maybe my hypothesis is incorrect, but the observation is what it is.
karimwassef
Active member
It could be that submerged scrubbers can trap more detritus that foments the bacteria vs. an air exposed scrubber where the churn jostles the detritus through... Doesn't have to be about oxygen, but it is about the interface and flow pattern through and around the growth.
That would also explain the updraft scrubber operation. The bubbles aren't about oxygen, they creates disruptive flow pattern around and through the algae mass that keeps bacteria from gaining ground against the algae that has a strong attachment to the base.
That would also explain the updraft scrubber operation. The bubbles aren't about oxygen, they creates disruptive flow pattern around and through the algae mass that keeps bacteria from gaining ground against the algae that has a strong attachment to the base.
jason2459
Well-known member
I don't have any experience with a submerged scrubber but with macro algae like chaeto it certainly does better when not covered in detritus. At that point I believe its the light thats hindered and if its covered in detritus is most likely lacking in water movement as well.
D2mini has a great example of a perfect chaeto setup. Lots of light and lots of flow.
And agree bubbles in an up flow is much more about water movement then co2/oxygen exchange. Aquatic plants/algaes do just fine with out bubbles.
D2mini has a great example of a perfect chaeto setup. Lots of light and lots of flow.
And agree bubbles in an up flow is much more about water movement then co2/oxygen exchange. Aquatic plants/algaes do just fine with out bubbles.
karimwassef
Active member
Ok so it's all about agitation and flow. So is a submerged ATS screen better or worse than a free air screen ... Or neither?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yes and you get it with a waterfall, or with upflowing bubbles. Technically, bubbles reduce the interface distance to zero for an instant.
I think it's CO2 that you mean. Oxygen does no good for algae growth.
Yes but the growth rate is less without the air/water interface. The air/water interface removes the boundary layer that stops nutrient transfer.
Dynamic Aquaria, by Adey.
Also www.ReefBase.org
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
3D refers to the growth, not the method (waterfall vs upflow vs horizontal).
Actually some have suggested that the algae forms a dynamic "substrate" that bacteria can populate, and then when you harvest the algae, you are also harvesting bacteria. Not sure how much this has been researched but it does make sense.
Maybe we're talking about different kinds of bacteria here though....
jason2459
Well-known member
I don't buy the air bubble spliting thing but thats just my opinion.
No O. Last I knew there's O in CO2 as well. [emoji4]
Will keep researching as alway. Thanks.
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jason2459
Well-known member
Ah yes, I've seen HOG and Surf referring to 3d growth to I think.
I don't see why or what would stop bacteria of some type from growing on the screen with the algae or on the algae. I see all kinds of stuff growing with the algae.
One of several times I've sampled the ATS.
Search For Dinoflagellates in some Green Hair Algae: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN_wI2B-a8vqpOWr4oWyCmtvWcQA1TZQy
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
"air" is overall always appropriate...
jason2459
Well-known member
Yes but not near as snarky
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karimwassef
Active member
so what I'm hearing is that violent agitation of the algae is the target. Air is just a tool to that end.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
zachtos
Active member
Is there a consensus yet on LED density?
I am plumbing my 300G right now, and have a 24" x 14" screen setup prepared, planning to light with deep red and 410nm UV LED (8:1 or so ratio). I am unsure if I need optics, or what is ideal to not burn them, obviously less waste light the better.
I am plumbing my 300G right now, and have a 24" x 14" screen setup prepared, planning to light with deep red and 410nm UV LED (8:1 or so ratio). I am unsure if I need optics, or what is ideal to not burn them, obviously less waste light the better.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
http://algaescrubber.zohosites.com/lighting-led.html
Deep Reds 2" on center, being able to dim them is a huge +. No lenses, you want light spread out & even not focused (leads to burning).
I don't know if UV is what you meant, but 410 is likely to be classified as "deep violet" not invisible Ultra Violet. 415-425 is what I recommend (hyper violet SemiLED are very good quality, other brands of violets might delaminate, they are prone to that)
for a 24 x 14 screen that is a ton of LEDs and is also really super huge, that's 336 sq in, did you size that according to volume or feeding? because that is a 28 cube/day screen...
zachtos
Active member
Is there a negative to oversizing really?
I also thought about optics and moving to 10-12" back from scrubber on both sides to use less LED and smaller heatsink/fixture.
"use one 3W LED on each side for every 12 square inches." Is this still true? because that puts me at 28 LED where you said every 2 inches center to center, that works out to 60 LED, or a 100% change of intensity based on my interpretation.
It will eventually be a heavily stocked SPS w/ tons of fish in the 300G. I calculated maybe 10-20 cubes but varies based on age of fish. I have a big skimmer, but hoped one day could run it part time only if the ATS works that well.
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Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
There can be if it is vastly oversized, but that is relative also. Meaning if you put a 10 cube/day scrubber on a tank fed 3/day, could be issues with growth trying to spread out across the whole screen and not growing green. Condensing down to match what you feed is generally better, or not much over 2x feeding.
For your example, making a 25+ cube/day scrubber when you are feeding 10-20, probably will be ok but there's not much "data" out there for large tank scrubbers that are overbuilt, so I guess it's hard to say if that "multiplier guideline" holds true as you scale up or if it has more to do with how much you oversize strictly based on "extra cubes" if you get what I mean.
Either way, if you oversize too much then you can end up with some problems but whether or not that happens depends on some factors that are more specifically related to your setup, and it's hard to predict.
Then there is the issue of flow and lighting, both of which increase with size, and cost you initial $ and also heat and monthly $.
You can always start with a conservative size and make it bigger if that ends up being the road you decide to go down.
For your example, making a 25+ cube/day scrubber when you are feeding 10-20, probably will be ok but there's not much "data" out there for large tank scrubbers that are overbuilt, so I guess it's hard to say if that "multiplier guideline" holds true as you scale up or if it has more to do with how much you oversize strictly based on "extra cubes" if you get what I mean.
Either way, if you oversize too much then you can end up with some problems but whether or not that happens depends on some factors that are more specifically related to your setup, and it's hard to predict.
Then there is the issue of flow and lighting, both of which increase with size, and cost you initial $ and also heat and monthly $.
You can always start with a conservative size and make it bigger if that ends up being the road you decide to go down.
zachtos
Active member
I suppose I can try to find a way to expand the design, but reserve the space during my build phase. Fish will be all juvenile, so the demand will kick up dramatically in coming years.
What about the calculations for LED / sq. inch or using optics and moving further back so I can have a smaller fixture?
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