Algae Scrubber Basics

[br88dy]

Hi friends. I have a quick question about flow rate and also about LED's. It's not easy to find any recent set-in-stone guidelines on how to mature a screen in the early stages unless you've purchased someone else's product, so I'm hoping to get some feedback here.

My DIY setup:

- 10 Gallon AIO
- 4"x3" screen in overflow chamber, lit on 1 side
- 160 GPH pump
- (1) Solderless CREE XP-E Photo Red (660nm) LED from RapidLED that is 4 inches from the screen.
- 1 cube of food fed throughout the day to 2 clownfish

1. I know I need more LED's because 4 inches is pretty far away from my screen so I've ordered 3 more, but I'm currently running my 1 LED 20 hours on and 4 hours off. I'm doing this because I've read that lower light is better when maturing a screen, but 1 LED seemed like a low amount of light so I'm letting it run most of the day and night.
2. I know I "need 35 gph per inch of screen", but that information also came from posts that said our screen size needs to match our water volume, which is outdated, so I'm not sure if that's still valid information as well.

Should I decrease the size of my screen to a 4" wide by 1-1.5" tall to match the flow rate, and then decrease my feeding? If so, how many of those LEDs should I use for maturing and then also for a grown in scrubber? Thanks in advance! Here's a couple sweet pics of about 4 days with the 1 LED.

 

[DamonG]

I have not used a ATS for about 10 years now. I made the horizontal flow type years ago.

My present system is about 7 yrs old now. I guess my live rock is getting aged and is releasing a lot of phosphates at this point. I wanted to add a ATS to my system but a small one.

I have a 180 SPS DT, 34 gallon tank with atlantic lobster in it, and another 34 gallon tank with seahorses. They are all hooked up to the same system.
My phosphates are around 0.05-0.08 and nitrates are around 5-10 ppm. My seahorse tank has a lot of macroalgae growing in it.

Reason for adding the ATS is to just keep the system a little cleaner and decrease outbreaks of blooms I sometimes get.

Wierd question. Do they have immitation plants for my seahorses when the scrubber really starts working? and what types of scrubbers do you guys recommend? I am on active duty so don't have time to build one like I used to.

Thanks Guys
Alex

Actually that's the type of setup I'm running.. I also have a 180 dt sps, cheato tub(40 gallon stock tub) with 2 mollies and a blue damsel.. And then I have my traditional sump with the scrubber in it..

I have had the scrubber set up and running since I reset the tank in June, and added the tub about two months ago.. The key in my system has been food. I couldn't get the cheato to grow until I started feeding more heavily the fish.. Once I did that, I have been able to keep cheato growing well.. The scrubber will indeed remove lots of nutrient, but I'm not sold on it starves the system to the point that we need in sps tanks. At least in the two times i have run scrubbers.. To me, yes, they do well, but a multi pronged attack is needed.. I still run my pellets, buy with very little flow going through.

But, with a decent sized one, alone, you can and will, with your macro(depending on the type), keep algea out of the display.. For example, about a month ago, I added 25lb of new rock to the tub.. My phosphate went from .02 to .06.. Normally with all the light in the display, I would see some kind of algea bloom.. But nope! Not a lick in the display! The tub with the cheato is on tilt as far as growing, and producing hair algea.. But nothing at all in the display.. The scrubber also, it is growing much thicker algea and requires more frequent cleaning.. But, nothing is coming in the display. Which, for what we are growing is awesome!

You still have the ability to get your levels low, and mine are usually very low to non existent with just the scrubber and your macro.. Then, you can play with each growth rate by the light hours.. As long add you have significant light..

And then, you can feed your fish all you want.. I'm like you, I do the multi pronged approach and don't place all my balls in one bucket..

From note 5..

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hi friends. I have a quick question about flow rate and also about LED's. It's not easy to find any recent set-in-stone guidelines on how to mature a screen in the early stages unless you've purchased someone else's product, so I'm hoping to get some feedback here.

My DIY setup:

- 10 Gallon AIO
- 4"x3" screen in overflow chamber, lit on 1 side
- 160 GPH pump
- (1) Solderless CREE XP-E Photo Red (660nm) LED from RapidLED that is 4 inches from the screen.
- 1 cube of food fed throughout the day to 2 clownfish

1. I know I need more LED's because 4 inches is pretty far away from my screen so I've ordered 3 more, but I'm currently running my 1 LED 20 hours on and 4 hours off. I'm doing this because I've read that lower light is better when maturing a screen, but 1 LED seemed like a low amount of light so I'm letting it run most of the day and night.
2. I know I "need 35 gph per inch of screen", but that information also came from posts that said our screen size needs to match our water volume, which is outdated, so I'm not sure if that's still valid information as well.

Should I decrease the size of my screen to a 4" wide by 1-1.5" tall to match the flow rate, and then decrease my feeding? If so, how many of those LEDs should I use for maturing and then also for a grown in scrubber? Thanks in advance! Here's a couple sweet pics of about 4 days with the 1 LED.

The flow guideline is still good - 35 GPH/in has always been the target, but IMO you can get away with less and still be OK, it just might "de-rate" your capacity a bit. This is one of the factors that I've started to look at after the years, because my experience and what I've seen of others is that you can still get good growth with lower flow, but it's all dependent on your specific setup - which is why "hard" guideline numbers don't always work well.

Starting a screen, just enough flow for even coverage is adequate. Flow is usually not even for the first day or two, until the screen starts to "slime up" a bit - which tends to even out the coverage.

Once you start to get good growth, enough to where you start seeing some of the holes getting occluded with growth, you can start increasing the flow a bit at a time.

Regarding lighting, you are correct that a lower level is OK for startup, again this is system dependent much of the time. You may find that with an oversized screen, low flow, and low overall light level (but the right source, the LEDs you have are intense so that is good) can work for you for quite a while.

Regarding your specific setup, I would stay the course and see how it goes before changing too many things. 4x3 single sided is basically a 1/2 cube/day scrubber but you would want (eventually) more light on that, bumping to 3 is a good move.

But...do you really feed a full dube/day into a 10g tank? That's a ton of food for that size system for 2 clowns. You could probably feed 1/4 of that and be just fine, but that's JMO....

I wrote this up for reference and it's not really that outdated, but it does need a brushing up

http://algaescrubber.zohosites.com/

Hope that helps

 

[br88dy]

But...do you really feed a full dube/day into a 10g tank? That's a ton of food for that size system for 2 clowns. You could probably feed 1/4 of that and be just fine, but that's JMO....

Well that's an estimate, but I do some frozen food and a few pellets and a small pinch of flakes every day. It sounds like a lot, and it is, but I've been trying to get the pair to breed and one of the tips for getting a pair to breed is to offer a lot of food. This is why I want a dialed in scrubber, so I can remove lots of nutrients.

I'll be upgrading to an AIO 40 breeder in a few weeks and I'd like to get a good grip on starting an ATS on my 10 gallon so that I'll know exactly what to do with the new tank. It'll be my only source of removing nutrients- no skimmers or reactors or anything. Just an ATS.

Thanks for the advice, though, your experience and tips are invaluable. It'll be too difficult to up the flow on my 10 gallon, so I'll cut the screen in half and reduce my feedings. I'll probably stick with 2 660 LEDs with a scrubber that size and see how that works out for me. Any tips for how long to leave on my lights with 2 LEDs that are 4" from the screen? I'll also check out the link to see if I can find my answer there.

Thanks!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Any tips for how long to leave on my lights with 2 LEDs that are 4" from the screen?

It's really dependent on your system. Start at a reasonable number of hours, and increase by 1-2 hours with every cleaning/harvest, and pay attention to the growth type and volume. It doesn't hurt to record it somehow, but use the same method each time. Like weighing it - what I do is weigh it wet right after scraping, then squeeze the bejeesuz out of it and weigh it again, the latter is more reliable, the former is something I just do for kicks.

Also once you start getting over 16 hours/day leave it for a few growth cycles before increasing. On a small system it's easy to go over the edge quickly, and if you have the intensity/duration too long and some nutrient bottoms out, you could see a stark shift in growth type (like going from normal to stark white overnight)

 

[jason2459]

I've been up to 24/7 lighting and recently fully open on the flow

Production is doing great and finally pushing out to the inside walls.

Can see it flattened out in spots where it was pressing up against the sides. Some ripped off

 

[SantaMonica]

Yes the ripped growth was a reason for me wanting the bottom surface to be rough, so to hold on to the growth for a little longer before it went down the drain.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

But...growth ripping off the screen when you remove it to harvest still means nothing with respect to your point, because the fact that it tears off the screen means that it's anchored to something else. If it's anchored to something else, it typically won't go down the drain. In fact, you could expect the exact same thing to happen in your units due to the rougher bottom. When you go to harvest the growth, it will rip off the screen when you remove it. So what is your point?

 

[jason2459]

But...growth ripping off the screen when you remove it to harvest still means nothing with respect to your point, because the fact that it tears off the screen means that it's anchored to something else. If it's anchored to something else, it typically won't go down the drain. In fact, you could expect the exact same thing to happen in your units due to the rougher bottom. When you go to harvest the growth, it will rip off the screen when you remove it. So what is your point?

Totally this and it was awesome.

 

[wildman926]

I've been up to 24/7 lighting and recently fully open on the flow

Production is doing great and finally pushing out to the inside walls.

Mine are mature enough to where I have upped mine to 24x7, and I now have to clean them every week due to this.

 

[karimwassef]

Quick update. I've taken my monster ATS down about 3 months ago. The growth was massive and I was throwing out mountains of life with each export.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/208D3F4D-E131-42B9-B7F3-F04156017B8D_zpsksyxhyhc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/208D3F4D-E131-42B9-B7F3-F04156017B8D_zpsksyxhyhc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 208D3F4D-E131-42B9-B7F3-F04156017B8D_zpsksyxhyhc.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/5D3A9AAA-98F4-4371-ACDF-C075BBA93531_zpspapw3zse.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/5D3A9AAA-98F4-4371-ACDF-C075BBA93531_zpspapw3zse.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5D3A9AAA-98F4-4371-ACDF-C075BBA93531_zpspapw3zse.jpg"/></a>

The individual strands of hair were 3feet long and I was exporting a quart every week. I got busy and it actually clogged my overflow intake even though it was covered to minimize light.

Basically the overgrowth pushed the algae up into the shadow space and the growth was too fast to contain.

So- nature abhors a vacuum and my lit secondary tank (just plumbing and rocks) exploded into a massive 50gal swirling pool ATS (trademark)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/5A2E6AE0-1BA8-4B95-87B9-93F93C383033_zpscmsifobj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/5A2E6AE0-1BA8-4B95-87B9-93F93C383033_zpscmsifobj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5A2E6AE0-1BA8-4B95-87B9-93F93C383033_zpscmsifobj.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9B8AE2DF-0B26-4CF0-BC05-9C7E3C54E2C9_zpszg4ysnfh.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9B8AE2DF-0B26-4CF0-BC05-9C7E3C54E2C9_zpszg4ysnfh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9B8AE2DF-0B26-4CF0-BC05-9C7E3C54E2C9_zpszg4ysnfh.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FA1007ED-31E9-4FBC-A9DD-652953EB0611_zpsdzermxmy.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FA1007ED-31E9-4FBC-A9DD-652953EB0611_zpsdzermxmy.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FA1007ED-31E9-4FBC-A9DD-652953EB0611_zpsdzermxmy.jpg"/></a>

The configuration was a combination settling tank with intense light and this happened:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/33107314-90F4-40E3-AF72-F27167F424F7_zpsk2ugwnpf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/33107314-90F4-40E3-AF72-F27167F424F7_zpsk2ugwnpf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 33107314-90F4-40E3-AF72-F27167F424F7_zpsk2ugwnpf.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg"/></a>

Which I decided to feed to my algae-free reef tank that I had stopped feeding completely

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/654C0AD9-0D6F-47C4-B757-78F5AF321B3F_zpsie2iyrbz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/654C0AD9-0D6F-47C4-B757-78F5AF321B3F_zpsie2iyrbz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 654C0AD9-0D6F-47C4-B757-78F5AF321B3F_zpsie2iyrbz.jpg"></a>

So- now I have a recycling ATS instead of an export ATS

I decided to turn the high intensity LED 24/7 and now I have a bog

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg"></a>

 

[karimwassef]

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg"></a>

The algae is literally crawling with pods and the bottom on the tank it filled with sediment that settles there.

I export and then feed it into my tank.

I stopped external feeding, protein skimmer, GFO, GAC and even water changes

Result:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"></a>

Massive overcrowding (pic with MH only- no LEDs or actinics)

More pics on my tank thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2545088&page=7

 

[karimwassef]

The LED over the secondary tank is DIY consuming 600W (50A x 12V) @ 24/7

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg"></a>

I think it's a little much for a tank I never feed any more so the algae is lighter in color these days, but still green. If it gets brownish, I'll feed again or cut back the light.

It is competing for nutrients with my reef running 1200W of MH for 18hrs a day.

 

[vikinglord13]

That is some intense growth!

 

[sensei]

The LED over the secondary tank is DIY consuming 600W (50A x 12V) @ 24/7

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg"></a>

I think it's a little much for a tank I never feed any more so the algae is lighter in color these days, but still green. If it gets brownish, I'll feed again or cut back the light.

It is competing for nutrients with my reef running 1200W of MH for 18hrs a day.

Karim,

did you solve the black algae that was growing in your dt with this big ATS?
I remember you said you have insect probelms that contributed to excess nutrients?

What you you mean, you never feed anymore?
dont you have a lot of fish?

 

[vmvm60]

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg"></a>

The algae is literally crawling with pods and the bottom on the tank it filled with sediment that settles there.

I export and then feed it into my tank.

I stopped external feeding, protein skimmer, GFO, GAC and even water changes

Result:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"></a>

Massive overcrowding (pic with MH only- no LEDs or actinics)

More pics on my tank thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2545088&page=7

Karim,

This is spectacular indeed, especially the coral health. I have also experimented an oversized ATS + refugium, however the SPS/LPS were not thriving. A Triton analysis showed depleted traces, especially Iodine, Iron, Molybden, Manganese. These are known to be scavenged aggressively by the algae, which get exported on removal . How do you compensate without water changes?

 

[karimwassef]

I stopped export. I use the algae from the scrubber tank as food for the reef tank.

No waste.

It's basically a closed loop with light turning the cycle over. 1200W MH over the reef for 18hrs and 600W LED over the scrubber.

Yes. The black algae stopped once I stopped external feeding.

I was surprised when the fish didn't die from negligence. To be honest, I had little choice with my work schedule and my wife's vociferous hatred of the tank. I expected the mandarin to go first followed by the trigger eating all the shrimp and then the damsels before dying. They all made it.

 

[karimwassef]

I had agonized for some time a while back about scrubber export being so full of life. I tried separating the pods from the algae... bad experiments

This unexpected solution actually solved my feeding budget and my discomfort in killing the export.

I do believe that I can still feed the tank until the export goes from pale green back to a rich dark green again. basically topping off the food / nutrient level in the tanks. But that's an experiment for another day.

 

[sensei]

I stopped export. I use the algae from the scrubber tank as food for the reef tank.

No waste.

It's basically a closed loop with light turning the cycle over. 1200W MH over the reef for 18hrs and 600W LED over the scrubber.

Yes. The black algae stopped once I stopped external feeding.

I was surprised when the fish didn't die from negligence. To be honest, I had little choice with my work schedule and my wife's vociferous hatred of the tank. I expected the mandarin to go first followed by the trigger eating all the shrimp and then the damsels before dying. They all made it.

Karim,
the big black container is more like a fuge than an ATS but you are harvesting GHA instead of Chaeto or other algae, isn´t it?

have you tested your N and P? do they show in test kits now?

you have such amaizing colors in your sps. can I know your alk and other parameters??

 

[karimwassef]

Fuge vs scrubber... no idea about the semantics.

The hair grows in long billowing strands 1-2ft long. Sometimes wrapping into a loop.

I do believe that combining it with a settling tank design works to keep the algae fed without leaving the detritus in the reef.

The rounded ends create a continuous loop of flow that pulls on the algae forming the long strands. Removing this is much easier (and less messy) than scraping off my double sided monster ATS screens. It's killing nd of like a cotton candy machine where the algae just wraps around in my hand.

The efficiency is very high because there's no glass interface. It's literally growing on the surface of the water where the turbulence and flow are highest.

I've always had thick growth and pods, but harvesting this stuff literally made my skin crawl with pods. They were jumping from out of the semi-submerged mass as I collected it.

Putting that in my tank in an eggcrate cage made my tangs and wrasses go a little wild.