Algae Scrubber Basics

All in I'm around $200. The acrylic was $80 and the rest was for the LED's. I am getting ready to add another larger tank to my collection. With the addition of the new tank I will be building a much bigger sump and will build a bigger ATS for that. At that time I will explore overflow feed for the ATS.

Yeah, I will repeat myself. Only b/c I'd hate to see it not work as well on your larger tank. You should measure the flow coming out of your returns and insure that scrubber will get enough flow. Before building it with that in mind. I favor overflow fed scrubbers b/c it keeps electric costs down, scrubber costs down. Also gets the added benefit of filtering nearly 100% of the water flow that passes through your sump.
 
Ok not only am I going to be building a scrubber for the 800 gallon display for the display tank at the lfs I work part time in but now they want me to build one for the fish holding system in the store, that is about 900 gallons. My question would be how will the algae react to small amounts of copper in the system. My thoughts are that it will either absorb the copper or the copper will kill the algae. We are going to set up a holding/hospital system in the back of store but I would still like to know what the effects would be in this case.
 
Ok not only am I going to be building a scrubber for the 800 gallon display for the display tank at the lfs I work part time in but now they want me to build one for the fish holding system in the store, that is about 900 gallons. My question would be how will the algae react to small amounts of copper in the system. My thoughts are that it will either absorb the copper or the copper will kill the algae. We are going to set up a holding/hospital system in the back of store but I would still like to know what the effects would be in this case.

I guess first we would need to know exactly how much copper in the 900? You are right the algae scrubber will absorb the copper, and because of that it may make it harder to maintain the desired amount of copper in the tank, without regular testing. My guess is that the tank always has copper in it... right? And that tank would be kept at a desired copper PPM full time... right? I believe the algae could take about as much copper as any other fish could. But then again the fish that go in that tank will not remain in that tank for very long.

Not sure what it costs to dose copper, I guess it couldn't be that much...

I guess the only real question is how will the scrubber be affected with long term copper dosing. It maybe hard to find a clear answer to this, let me post the question around and see what others say.
 
From what I understand the copper levels are pretty low, just enough to keep any parasites at bay. The phosphates and nitrates are off the charts and they are wanting to get them lowered to more exceptable levels
 
From what I understand the copper levels are pretty low, just enough to keep any parasites at bay. The phosphates and nitrates are off the charts and they are wanting to get them lowered to more exceptable levels

That alone can can stress the fish more and make them more likely to be affected by the parasites they are being treated for... Slap a scrubber on it and let us know how it goes!! Please keep us updated with the progress. You have any design plans to share or progress with the first scrubbers for that matter? Thank you for sharing this with us. You should look at some designs that people have done for massive tanks like that 900. Can't wait to see what you build!! What kind of sump space do you have on the 900?

Let's see some pics!!!!! Of all three tanks!! Lol
 
I'll have to look up some copper-scrubber related items and get back to you. IIRC Algae gets killed off at copper levels lower than what is considered effective for treatment. Once the treatment is over, and the majority of the copper is removed, the scrubber will remove the trace amounts, but it is not known how quickly.
 
Here is some info on copper from another site:

The copper based anti-parasitic treatments like Seachem Cupramine (the best IMO) appear to be safe to use with algae scrubbers. The copper seems to suppress/kill slime algae on the screen, but allows more beneficial algae to grow instead. If you have a lot of slime algae on the screen, rinse it off under a shower first before starting treatment, or expect an ammonia spike (DO NOT USE PRODUCTS LIKE SEACHEM PRIME WHILE TREATING WITH COPPER - they break down the copper into more dangerous forms as they are a reducing agent (e.g. anything that says it removes ammonia))
You will need to test the water every day for copper content (make sure you get a good test kit that has a reference test too (e.g. the Seachem copper test kit)), the reason for this is that the algae absorbs, and pretty quickly, the copper from the water. Expect a full dose (0.5ppm copper) of Cupramine to be absorbed in 3 days on a standard sized/powered algae scrubber (1w/gal lighting, 1 sq. inch, double sided, per gal screen). Depending on the amount of copper in the water you will need to re-dose to get it to the expected amount, but MAKE SURE YOU TEST FIRST! (double check this with the manufacturer of your treatment FIRST! This was however, Seachem's advice).

Part of this is then proven incorrect

After prolonged use of copper in a tank (12 weeks!) it does appear to affect the algae, it seems to take 3-4 weeks to have a noticeable affect then the good green algae seem to die off.
For shorter uses of 2-3 weeks it shouldn't affect the algae too much, but does still appear to absorb copper from the tank. After this point it seems to be just the darker slime algaes that grow and the green algae doesn't seem to re-grow after cleaning, so the scrubber still works, but at a greatly reduced capacity.
After removing the copper (e.g. using Polyfilters or activated carbon with Seachem's Cupramine) the good algae start to regrow within a matter of a few days, mine was back to full strength (actually much better than normal - probably due to the slightly higher nitrates) after 7-10 days of removing the copper.

So it would appear that copper is not totally scrubber safe, especially if it's used over a prolonged period.

What I would suggest is setting up a scrubber on a non-copper tank and getting it broken in (let the screen slime up and start growing algae for about 4-6 weeks). Then set aside a period of time where the QT system is made copper-free by absorption techniques (copper, pads, etc) and switch the scrubber to the QT system for a few weeks and let it take down the N and P to the desired levels. Depending on how "out of control" the N and P are (that's a relative statement!) it could take a week, it could take longer. It also depends on your scrubber strength and the amount you feed. After the N and P drop down, start adding back the copper to the desired level and watch the scrubber closely. It will likely turn to slimy algae (not green hair) and will still filter, but will not be as effective; how much it will be affected is not really known. I think you would be one of the first to run a scrubber on such a system.

The safe bet is to make the scrubber stronger than it needs to be. But you're already 900 gallons so I think oversizing it is not a good option.

Here's what I would do. Track how much you feed the system, and convert that into cubes per day. A cube here would be defined as a cubic cm of food, like a Reef Nutrition cube. If you don't feed such food, then take whatever you are feeding them on a daily basis, shred it up fine (like in a blender), strain it, and pour it into a cube form and that will be what you're feeding per day for purposes of sizing the scrubber. A scrubber built properly and lit from both sides should be able to handle 1 cube of food per day for every 10 square inches (dimensions, not surface area) of screen.

I'm assuming that when the fish are in holding, they are not fed huge gobs of food, but more than "sparingly" as they probably are starving coming off the truck. Also assuming a FO or FOWLR system (no corals). With all this factored in, you may be able to get away with a relatively small scrubber compared to the system you have, but you will probably need to be cleaning the screen every 3 or 4 days, max, as you will probably get a lot of dark brown to black slimy algae, which does filter, but can detach more easily if left on the screen too long under high flow.

So if you have information on about how much you feed (and how many fish are typically kept in QT) as well as the copper treatment levels, post them here and we'll go from there. I might throw a few feelers out regarding your situation and try to get some more insight.
 
Changing lamps: don't stretch it!

Changing lamps: don't stretch it!

Just a piece of advice for everyone. I recently posted that you might be able to stretch out the life of a T5HO lamps past the 3 month point. I am absoutely redacting that statement.

My lamps were approaching the 4 month point. The previous 3 weeks had seen stellar algae growth. This week I had a huge outbreak of dinos, they're everywhere and ticking off just about everything in the tank. The bio-balls I use for blocking bubbles was packed with them. There was brown slime covering the algae on the screen, which was about 1/2 the growth that was there for the past 3 weeks (which is still pretty stellar growth, actually).

I needed to take the scrubber off the tank and clean it well anyways, so I did so and swapped the lamps. It was noticeably brighter after installing the new lamps and I hope to report soon that the dino outbreak is no more, but that might take a while.

I went through my maintenance records and may have also pinpointed this to a change in food. I feed a DIY food and recently made up a big batch that is pretty low in water content. This may have pushed the scrubber past it's limit (feeding 8 cubes a day!) so I may have to back off on the amount I feed as well, at least for a short amount of time, long enough for the scrubber to catch up.

But change lamps every 3 months, no matter what.
 
Uh oh, I have dino's in my tank. Those little buggers suck! My scrubber hasn't done much to get rid of them, I'm hoping once I move out and get the tank set up in a place other than my basement bedroom that I'll be able to get the pH high enough to kill them off. For now I think I just have to deal with them. Luckily they don't seem to be the poisonous type.
 
FRT, You recommend 2700k bulbs for an algae scrubbers. Well I got myself in trouble discussing cheato. Any idea why it appears that a 5100k is better for cheato? I would have thought they would be the same.

Sorry this is a little off topic, but I would appreciate your opinion.
 
Flow rate and even coverage of light across the entire screen are more important than spectrum. In the case that you pointed out, it may be of better use for a deep-water refugium growing chaeto to use a higher K lamp because it has more blue light to penetrate deeper, thus it has the ability to reach deeper into the ball of chaeto as well as deeper into the sump.

With a vertical scrubber, you don't have to worry about penetrating water more than about 1". So the same concept doesn't apply. The algae still prefers the heavy-red spectrum, but can utilize it that much better.

Here's something you can suggest, have someone build a closed-box scrubber without a screen (and a narrower slot, since the screen is not there, or some way to diffuse the water) and install a strainer over the drain and fill the box with chaeto.

I'm not a chaeto user myself, but from what I've heard from others, the growth is explosive compared to the underwater sump style of growing it.
 
Ok just to be clear. This system (900 gallons) Is the holding/display tanks for the fish that are for sale in the store. The sump for this system is about 60x30x30. Haven't measure it yet but that seems about right. It is full of bio balls with a drip plate and prefilter sitting over the drip plate. I am going to try and talk them into taking the bio ball out and put rock in its place. Maybe about 16" of sand also. I'm afraid the bio balls would hinder or fight against the scrubber cause I know they are full of detritis and debree. Put a couple good powerheads in for flow.
 
Cleaned my ats for the first time. you will see in the pictures that there were some flow issues being evenly across the screen.
Adjustments made.....
*Used smaller zip ties and moved them to the very end of the screen.

*instead of having two rows of the screen inside the slot i now only have one.

With the adjustmemts I have water flowing evenly and on both sides of the screen.

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I hope this looks good....i was hoping it would be more green.


Steve
 
Today my tank looks much better, dinos are almost completely gone. Which is kind of weird. It was definitely dinos, brown snotty stuff with bubbles all over the place. But they're almost completely gone now. I also didn't feed today. I guess we'll see what it looks like at the end of the week. I have a hard time believing that just changing the lamps made that much of an immediate difference.
 
Ok just to be clear. This system (900 gallons) Is the holding/display tanks for the fish that are for sale in the store. The sump for this system is about 60x30x30. Haven't measure it yet but that seems about right. It is full of bio balls with a drip plate and prefilter sitting over the drip plate. I am going to try and talk them into taking the bio ball out and put rock in its place. Maybe about 16" of sand also. I'm afraid the bio balls would hinder or fight against the scrubber cause I know they are full of detritis and debree. Put a couple good powerheads in for flow.

Whoa Nelly. I would move slower on this. Be more conservative. You don't want to crash this thing. Bio balls do make nitrate. That's what they're for, converting the ammonia and nitrite down to safe nitrate.

A well running ATS should be able to easily convert everything the bio balls can dish out. Sure I prefer rock to BBs but without a stable happy ATS I wouldn't make big changes suddenly. You want rock? Add rock without pulling the BBs. After a few weeks start to slowly remove the BBs. Eventually you can have them all removed. Meanwhile get the ATS up and stable.

If you just pull the BBs and add rock you very likely would crash the system. Which would tank your reputation too. :lmao:
 
Copper and algae. I know that our municipal water facility uses copper to control algae in the reservoir. They go out in a boat and cast bucket fulls of copper sulfate in the blooms. And then they send the water to us to drink. :crazy1::hmm4:

I knew there was a reason for me to drink only the output of our RO unit.
 
Whoa Nelly. I would move slower on this. Be more conservative. You don't want to crash this thing. Bio balls do make nitrate. That's what they're for, converting the ammonia and nitrite down to safe nitrate.

A well running ATS should be able to easily convert everything the bio balls can dish out. Sure I prefer rock to BBs but without a stable happy ATS I wouldn't make big changes suddenly. You want rock? Add rock without pulling the BBs. After a few weeks start to slowly remove the BBs. Eventually you can have them all removed. Meanwhile get the ATS up and stable.

If you just pull the BBs and add rock you very likely would crash the system. Which would tank your reputation too. :lmao:

I completely agree
 
tested my n's and p's last night....
n = undetectable previously at 5ppm. I intentionally fed a little heavier this week.
P = .015 with hanna ulr phosphorous tester previously at .035

Not that the water wasnt clear before but I have noticed that is crystal clear after 1 week of use.

If anyone would like more information on how I built my box and the dimensions please feel free to contact me.
 
So had found some free time today to make more adjustments to my scrubber today.

Cut a new slot tube, came out very straight. Standard dremel method, but clamped it down, which helped a lot.

Made new screen, fresh screen roughed up, 9" wide. I scrapped my experimental screen which was made from a martial called Polyflex 2. Used for making air casts in physical therapy. It does not perform better then the current standard and should not be used.

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Took a large ball of hair algae and rubbed it into the screen.

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The screen width is now 4" shorter then the previous scrubber so my water coverage is perfect.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1313364770.548558.jpg

Next changes needed will be to hang splash guard better and mount lights to splash guard. But huge improvement from before.
 
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