Frank Mularo
New member
Excuse me, but how exactly is speculation dangerous? Questioning and hypothesizing is the basis of learning.
Where's the tinfoil hat icon?
Link to any thread? I'd be interested to see a pic.
Amphiprion ocellaris variegata - "Snowflake" Ocellaris Clownfish
- Thread starter Siapin
- Start date
Excuse me, but how exactly is speculation dangerous? Questioning and hypothesizing is the basis of learning.
Where's the tinfoil hat icon?
Link to any thread? I'd be interested to see a pic.
Frank Mularo
New member
I was unaware this was a scientific forum where we had to present published sources or have done everything we discuss. Is that rule on the home page?
Fishboy42
Premium Member
Please notice that I didn't say speculation was wrong (as you say, can be a good thing, and as a researcher I hope that you understand why (notice my occupation as well...)), but that speculation that could be misinterpreted as fact was probably a bad thing (you wouldn't publish in a peer-reviewed journal (or here I should hope) anything as "fact" until you had something to back it up). Sharing of ideas and experiences is what makes this website great, but we should make sure to qualify our statements so as not to misinform.
Interesting thread started by JHardman on why we won't be seeing "designer" clownfish and clowns developed through artificial selection anytime soon:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277144&highlight=hybrid
I'm surprised that you didn't find any information on the boards since you asked this question a while back:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176372&highlight=hybrid
BUT...there have been some new pairings and juvenile pictures shared.
Links to hybrid clown information you requested:
frenatus x ocellaris: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=609538&highlight=hybrid
frenatus x melanopus (no pictures in this thread, but a friend and I will be sharing some of our own baby pictures when they are old enough
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184850&highlight=hybrid
P. biaculatus x A. ocellaris:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300600&highlight=hybrid
For more pics of these, go here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394140&highlight=hybrid
Not captive bred, but a possible wild P. biaculatus x A. frenatus:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697673&highlight=hybrid
Interesting thread started by JHardman on why we won't be seeing "designer" clownfish and clowns developed through artificial selection anytime soon:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277144&highlight=hybrid
I'm surprised that you didn't find any information on the boards since you asked this question a while back:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176372&highlight=hybrid
BUT...there have been some new pairings and juvenile pictures shared.
Links to hybrid clown information you requested:
frenatus x ocellaris: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=609538&highlight=hybrid
frenatus x melanopus (no pictures in this thread, but a friend and I will be sharing some of our own baby pictures when they are old enough
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184850&highlight=hybrid
P. biaculatus x A. ocellaris:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300600&highlight=hybrid
For more pics of these, go here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394140&highlight=hybrid
Not captive bred, but a possible wild P. biaculatus x A. frenatus:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697673&highlight=hybrid
oama
Premium Member
Asking questions is good. Making wild speculations is not.
There is a difference.
As an example...
"Are they back breeding/inbreeding these fish to get Snowflakes?"
"They are inbreeding the fish to produce Snowflakes."
The former is an inquisitive question. The later wild speculation.
From the history of remarks about these fishes here on RC, there tends to be much more of the later. And, in fact, that, TTBOMK is wrong.
Only one pair produces this variant. No offspring have been noted as being spawning as of yet. So that eliminates inbreeding. Also, the parents are "Normal" A. ocellaris. As in that they show no signs of extra white. So, selective breeding is ruled out. Only a low percentage of the offspring are Snowflake. This is TTBOMK.
From my personal experience of pairing/spawning/rearing clownfish, I have found that they do not follow what is "normal" genetic traits as far as coloring/barring is concerned. Yes, misbarring can be induced. You have to understand the process.
Barring starts with the head bars, then the mid bar and finally the tail bar (in most cases, speaking of A. ocellaris/percula). Mostly, all this occurs during the larval stage. If conditions are right (aka bad), this process can be interrupted. AIUI, the process is run genetically, but the process can be interrupted to produce mis-barring. Genes are turned on to produce the white bars. But if they are interfered with, the process is not completed or never turned on.
As all fish/fry in a clutch mature at different rates, this makes it very difficult to produce a high percentage of a desired mis-barring. Thus the vast variation, if this happens.
One must also take into account that the vast majority of wild clown fish spawns do not survive to settle out. The percentage of survival is vastly greater in a captive environment. So, you would expect to see variations that one does not see in the wild. Often mild deformities that would be lethal in the wild do survive in a hatchery. Namely, missing operculum. Which has been seen through out mariculture. From clownfish to redfish (a food/gamefish).
I have no experience with spawning Snowflakes A. ocellaris, as they are only produce from England. I do have various experience with other variants such as Naked A. ocellaris and Picasso A. percula. And I can say that genetics play a much more major role than "induction". Though, as stated before, these fish do not follow the regular "recognized" rules in inheritance. Or if they do, it is above my head. At this point in time, I would say that we just don't know enough about the process. White stripes, extra or misbars, are a phenotype (an outward expression of the genes). We just don't know enough about the process in this family.
Stepping off the soap box....
There is a difference.
As an example...
"Are they back breeding/inbreeding these fish to get Snowflakes?"
"They are inbreeding the fish to produce Snowflakes."
The former is an inquisitive question. The later wild speculation.
From the history of remarks about these fishes here on RC, there tends to be much more of the later. And, in fact, that, TTBOMK is wrong.
Only one pair produces this variant. No offspring have been noted as being spawning as of yet. So that eliminates inbreeding. Also, the parents are "Normal" A. ocellaris. As in that they show no signs of extra white. So, selective breeding is ruled out. Only a low percentage of the offspring are Snowflake. This is TTBOMK.
From my personal experience of pairing/spawning/rearing clownfish, I have found that they do not follow what is "normal" genetic traits as far as coloring/barring is concerned. Yes, misbarring can be induced. You have to understand the process.
Barring starts with the head bars, then the mid bar and finally the tail bar (in most cases, speaking of A. ocellaris/percula). Mostly, all this occurs during the larval stage. If conditions are right (aka bad), this process can be interrupted. AIUI, the process is run genetically, but the process can be interrupted to produce mis-barring. Genes are turned on to produce the white bars. But if they are interfered with, the process is not completed or never turned on.
As all fish/fry in a clutch mature at different rates, this makes it very difficult to produce a high percentage of a desired mis-barring. Thus the vast variation, if this happens.
One must also take into account that the vast majority of wild clown fish spawns do not survive to settle out. The percentage of survival is vastly greater in a captive environment. So, you would expect to see variations that one does not see in the wild. Often mild deformities that would be lethal in the wild do survive in a hatchery. Namely, missing operculum. Which has been seen through out mariculture. From clownfish to redfish (a food/gamefish).
I have no experience with spawning Snowflakes A. ocellaris, as they are only produce from England. I do have various experience with other variants such as Naked A. ocellaris and Picasso A. percula. And I can say that genetics play a much more major role than "induction". Though, as stated before, these fish do not follow the regular "recognized" rules in inheritance. Or if they do, it is above my head. At this point in time, I would say that we just don't know enough about the process. White stripes, extra or misbars, are a phenotype (an outward expression of the genes). We just don't know enough about the process in this family.
Stepping off the soap box....
oama
Premium Member
This thread is drifting far from its original focus, but hopefully, some will find this information of interest.
One thing I forgot to add to my last post. The extra barring is thought to be the result of the signals to turn on the barring pigmentation going out of control. Starting early and/or not being shut off at the right time.
Think of it as if the fish is scanned from head to tail very slowly. Or slowly moving down a assembly line with a white spray paint at one point. If the fish is 100 units long... The signal to turn on the white pigment goes something like this...
Signal On at 27
Signal Off at 30
Signal on at 48
Signal off at 52
Signal on at 78
Signal off at 80
What is not know is what controls these signals. Or even what those signals are. The signals have been shown to be interrupted by environmental factors. But the additional firing/signaling has not been shown to be effected by these factors.
As with most of these fish, they have not really been inbred/back bred/selectively bred all that much (if at all). So not enough information is out there as to know what the F2 or greater will look like.
One thing I forgot to add to my last post. The extra barring is thought to be the result of the signals to turn on the barring pigmentation going out of control. Starting early and/or not being shut off at the right time.
Think of it as if the fish is scanned from head to tail very slowly. Or slowly moving down a assembly line with a white spray paint at one point. If the fish is 100 units long... The signal to turn on the white pigment goes something like this...
Signal On at 27
Signal Off at 30
Signal on at 48
Signal off at 52
Signal on at 78
Signal off at 80
What is not know is what controls these signals. Or even what those signals are. The signals have been shown to be interrupted by environmental factors. But the additional firing/signaling has not been shown to be effected by these factors.
As with most of these fish, they have not really been inbred/back bred/selectively bred all that much (if at all). So not enough information is out there as to know what the F2 or greater will look like.
Frank Mularo
New member
Number one, you cannot convince me that speculating about breeding clownfish is a bad thing or "dangerous" in any circumstance.
Number two, my original statement was that an intrepid breeder could probably produce something like this easily. I was asked how that could be done and I explained how it could be done. Nowhere did I say "This is how the people selling snowflake clownfish made them." I said they must have figured out how to make them since they're selling them.
Just because these particular folks aren't specifically pairing fish and then crossing the young to get the desired patterns (with or without some form of external pressure) doesn't mean that it can't be done that way. Face the facts, man. That's the way it's done with every other species of plant or animal that's been produced by humans since it's been done.
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Folks seem to have their opinions, and discussion of such opinions is within the rules. The issue with conjecture in a "authoritative" medium is that the conjecture is later treated as fact and obscures the truth. Welcome to the internet.
Some on this thread have crossed the line by using profanity and launching personal attacks. Neither are within the <a href=http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php target=_blank>User Agreement</a> or within the stated mission of Reef Central.
Let's try to stay on topic, within the rules, and accept that fact none of us know everything about breeding clowns, but there are a couple on this thread that are well beyond "hobbyist level" in clownfish breeding experience.
Thanks.
Some on this thread have crossed the line by using profanity and launching personal attacks. Neither are within the <a href=http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php target=_blank>User Agreement</a> or within the stated mission of Reef Central.
Let's try to stay on topic, within the rules, and accept that fact none of us know everything about breeding clowns, but there are a couple on this thread that are well beyond "hobbyist level" in clownfish breeding experience.
Thanks.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Here is a very easy experiment to demonstrate that environment impacts bar development in juvenile clown fish.
Take a group of juveniles (just post larval stage) and split group in half, taking photos of the two populations. Place the two groups in two different environments - i.e. keep one group in a commercial breeding grow out tank, and take the other group and place it in a floating grow-out cage in someone's reef tank. Use the same food and feeding frequency if you can. Compare the two groups after a couple of months have gone by.
I have done this and come out with VERY different results where the two groups looked like they came from completely different parents. I don't have photos, but the group in the reef tank colored up much more quickly, had much more extensive black coloration, and had completed bar development much more quickly than the other group. (And some individuals in the first group never completely developed three bars).
Why? I don't know. It was too difficult to control the two environments so that you could only tweak one variable. One of the tests I had wanted to do at some point was create a dual grow-out tank setup so that you could run the same water, food, etc, and test different lighting, different foods, etc, individually to determine best results.
Just thought I'd add this to the discussion.
Take a group of juveniles (just post larval stage) and split group in half, taking photos of the two populations. Place the two groups in two different environments - i.e. keep one group in a commercial breeding grow out tank, and take the other group and place it in a floating grow-out cage in someone's reef tank. Use the same food and feeding frequency if you can. Compare the two groups after a couple of months have gone by.
I have done this and come out with VERY different results where the two groups looked like they came from completely different parents. I don't have photos, but the group in the reef tank colored up much more quickly, had much more extensive black coloration, and had completed bar development much more quickly than the other group. (And some individuals in the first group never completely developed three bars).
Why? I don't know. It was too difficult to control the two environments so that you could only tweak one variable. One of the tests I had wanted to do at some point was create a dual grow-out tank setup so that you could run the same water, food, etc, and test different lighting, different foods, etc, individually to determine best results.
Just thought I'd add this to the discussion.
I'm gonna be keeping my eyes open for a pair of these... they're sweet looking. 
Siapin
Member
Are you kidding me?! Aquariasts, reefers, researchers have done so many different studies on clowns, let alone the entire marine biology practice.
Are you saying there have been NO spawning of "snowflake" clowns? There has to be some hobbyist or researcher that has had spawning pair of "snowflakes", and raised the frye of "snowflakes".
Well, you can ask that company in England how they get their highest success rate of raising "snowflakes".
FishnWishn
Premium Member
I think That's what oama is saying. There have been no reported spawns of a pair. They have not been on the market that long. When I got my 1st pair the wholesaler said that "TFC only got an average of 3 pairs a month,with this morph, out of the parents. that's out of 2 spawns /mth."
I have a male "snowflake" spawning with a 3 1/2 year old female Perc., but my male I have had for just over a year. My other pair I have had for 6 mths.show no signs of spawning.
FishnWishn
Premium Member
I think it is too early. If TFC had them at least 10 months before selling them that would only put them at about 14mths old. There is a definite male & female by size and submission. they, however do not clear rocks or anything or even keep other fish away from their Anemone like my other split pair. By the way, The Snowflake male and Perc female are laying their 3rd spawn as I type. This time they laid them on a tile that I put in for them instead of the glass.
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