Answering "Snorkle Bob's Call to Ban Aquariums

[Reefnut2010]

Garage1217, Thank you for that !! I truly needed a laugh. All jokes aside (including Robert Wintner), I hope facts rule in all decisions and not personal ajendas and straight up misinformation. Obviously this guy likes the limelight !!

 

[Gill_bucket]

I'm surprised every one hates snorkel bob so much. I know he called us all petafiles but he is obviously just passionate about the same animals we are. I don't think anyone who keeps marine aquariums wants to decimate the wild populations of yellow tangs. Personally I think we should be grateful to him for drawing our attention to what is happening in Hawaii. I had always assumed that Hawaii had adequate regulations in place to protect wild populations of reef fish, I knew of what had happened in Indonesia but I hadn't given much thought to the safety of our own reefs and thier inhabitants. I think we have a responsibility to ensure that Hawaiian waters have healthy populations of fish, I realize that snorkel bob didnt ask us for help in this cause but I for one care more about helping the fish than hating bob.

 

[Gill_bucket]

Not sure how many have already read this, but I didn't come across it until after Bob got me curious about what was happening in Hawaii. http://www.coralreefnetwork.com/kona/WHAP 2001 Final report.pdf

 

[doctorgori]

these are the same types that throw paint on fur coats but totally ignor people who wear leather shoes: Misplaced focus
... as usual there is some altruistic agenda behind every crusade and they always miss the larger point: too many people/goverments/businesses consume/abuse the oceans resources in general

...the few fish hobbyist take is not only sustainable but a drop in the bucket comparitivley

...again: one wonders if his efforts are misplaced: perhaps he needs to focus on the real abusers:
unsustainable fisheries: orange roughy, chilean sea bass, tuna, et
Polluters, plastics, CO2 emmisions, et et

 

[Luiz Rocha]

I had always assumed that Hawaii had adequate regulations in place to protect wild populations of reef fish

Hawaii does have adequate regulations for the aquarium trade, the PDF you posted is an example. In addition, the Yellow Tang is completely protected in more than 70% of it's range (Northwestern Hawaiian Islands) and it's biology supports a high fishing pressure. Yellow Tangs are naturally abundant, herbivore fishes.

As Doctorgori says, If you want to help Hawaiian reef fishes you have to pressure local governments to control recreational fishing, trying to end the collection for aquarium trade is a completely misplaced effort.

 

[Gill_bucket]

Hawaii does have adequate regulations for the aquarium trade, the PDF you posted is an example. In addition, the Yellow Tang is completely protected in more than 70% of it's range (Northwestern Hawaiian Islands) and it's biology supports a high fishing pressure. Yellow Tangs are naturally abundant, herbivore fishes.

As Doctorgori says, If you want to help Hawaiian reef fishes you have to pressure local governments to control recreational fishing, trying to end the collection for aquarium trade is a completely misplaced effort.

If you read the study I posted it clearly shows that the aquarium trade has a HUGE impact on fish populations. If you look at the fish populations that are making a recovery inside the reserve you will see that they are hobby fish, for example the Achilles tang. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think people sport fish for the Achilles tang?

This study is not an example of a well managed fishery, it is evidence of the irresponsible collection that has been going on in hawaii.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

The study is from 2001. Since then, those reserves were established. 98% of the captures for fish for the aquarium trade in Hawaii are done in one island, the Big Island, where all those reserves are present. The yellow tang is completely protected in 70% of it's range, and is only fished in a small portion of the remaining 30% of its range (the Big Island).

No, the study is not evidence of an irresponsible fishery. It is evidence that a sustainable fishery is possible with the presence and enforcement of marine reserves, which is exactly what happens there.

 

[AquaticFins]

If you read the study I posted it clearly shows that the aquarium trade has a HUGE impact on fish populations.

I'm quoting from that report, in the paragraph on "Effectiveness of Reserves:"

Overall, there were no significant differences in before-after comparisons, indicating that aquarium fishes in FRAs and open areas were not increasing or decreasing in abundance.

Aquarium fish populations did not change with the closing of the reserve areas. There was not a significantly larger or smaller number of total fish counted in the study. What they did find is a higher DENSITY of aquarium fish species in the FRAs; more fish were found in the reserves after they had been established for a short time, less in the open areas...but about the same total number of fish total.

That certainly tracks with what I've experienced diving; the boundaries of most no-take zones are generally fairly obvious even underwater. Fish certainly seem to know where to stay; they seem to tolerate substantially higher population densities and smaller territories in order to stay in the reserve areas.

 

[Gill_bucket]

If you read the study I posted it clearly shows that the aquarium trade has a HUGE impact on fish populations. If you look at the fish populations that are making a recovery inside the reserve you will see that they are hobby fish, for example the Achilles tang. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think people sport fish for the Achilles tang?

This study is not an example of a well managed fishery, it is evidence of the irresponsible collection that has been going on in hawaii.

The study is from 2001. Since then, those reserves were established. 98% of the captures for fish for the aquarium trade in Hawaii are done in one island, the Big Island, where all those reserves are present. The yellow tang is completely protected in 70% of it's range, and is only fished in a small portion of the remaining 30% of its range (the Big Island).




No, the study is not evidence of an irresponsible fishery. It is evidence that a sustainable fishery is possible with the presence and enforcement of marine reserves, which is exactly what happens there.

It is true that this is an older study, I will have to do some more research on current regulations. Do you have any good links?

 

[Gill_bucket]

I'm quoting from that report, in the paragraph on "Effectiveness of Reserves:"


Aquarium fish populations did not change with the closing of the reserve areas. There was not a significantly larger or smaller number of total fish counted in the study. What they did find is a higher DENSITY of aquarium fish species in the FRAs; more fish were found in the reserves after they had been established for a short time, less in the open areas...but about the same total number of fish total.

That certainly tracks with what I've experienced diving; the boundaries of most no-take zones are generally fairly obvious even underwater. Fish certainly seem to know where to stay; they seem to tolerate substantially higher population densities and smaller territories in order to stay in the reserve areas.

It also goes on to state that outside of the reserves yellow tangs decreased by 33%!!! This shows us that the reserve was ONLY able to maintain the already depleted stocks while the collectors reeked havock on the open area populations.

As someone else pointed out this is an older study and so it is not necesarily relevant to today's hawiian fisheries, as further restrictions may have been put in place since this study was conducted. The study does however show a clear impact on fish argue time it was conducted.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Alright, so we are talking different languages here. Nowhere in these studies it says that stocks are depleted. Yellow tang stocks are not depleted, not even in the Big Island.

Of course every fishery has an impact. Sustainable fisheries simply means fishing a species to a level where the population is maintained constant but it is still a viable, healthy population. A decrease of 33% is not enough to deplete any fish stock, especially of herbivore fishes (like the yellow tang) that are evolutionarily adapted to be in the bottom of the food chain.

Every activity has an impact, what most people here are trying to say is that the impact of collecting fish for the aquarium trade isn't anywhere near the impact of things like recreational or commercial fisheries, or even trashing beaches. There are many other problems that are being ignored in Hawaii, mostly because the aquarium trade is a lot easier to target. While there are just about a dozen licensed aquarium fish collectors in the Big Island, everybody and their dogs has a spear, so regulating recreational fisheries is a lot harder, and populations of fishes that are targeted by spearfishermen are in much bigger trouble than aquarium fishes.

Now, if you think that even a small dent in populations targeted for the aquarium trade is not acceptable, then you should start another thread on that subject, and one that talks not only about fish but all organisms traded for aquarium.

 

[kaipo13]

I'm surprised every one hates snorkel bob so much. I know he called us all petafiles but he is obviously just passionate about the same animals we are. I don't think anyone who keeps marine aquariums wants to decimate the wild populations of yellow tangs. Personally I think we should be grateful to him for drawing our attention to what is happening in Hawaii. I had always assumed that Hawaii had adequate regulations in place to protect wild populations of reef fish, I knew of what had happened in Indonesia but I hadn't given much thought to the safety of our own reefs and thier inhabitants. I think we have a responsibility to ensure that Hawaiian waters have healthy populations of fish, I realize that snorkel bob didnt ask us for help in this cause but I for one care more about helping the fish than hating bob.

As someone who lives in Hawaii, 'Snorkel Bob' is probably worse for the environment than the fish collectors. He rents his equipment to many who probably wouldn't think of snorkling if his obnoxious stands with their huge signs weren't there. My argument is, that many of these ill informed tourists to whom he rents his equipment, stand on, grab, touch the reef and kill coral like crazy; no matter what 'education' his staff dispense. A healthy reef helps rebuild fish populations depleted by collecting, but once you kill that reef, it takes much longer for the coral to grow back, which often never happens. I'm not saying people shouldn't rent snorkels and masks and check out the wildlife, but there must be an acknowledgement of the damage this industry does on the environment, instead of just blaming others.

 

[Eric the half-bee]

As far as I'm concerned Sea Shepherd is a terrorist organization. It's only a matter of time before they get someone killed with their tactics (if it hasn't already happened and I'm not aware). As for Robert Wintner... what a tool.

x100. Ecoterroism isnt good husbandry.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I did a google scholar search and I find it shocking that between 1999 and 2007 the population of yellow tangs (Zebrasoma flavescens) in the reserve became five times the size of the unprotected population. The worst of it is that the population in the reserve did no significant growth during this time, instead the difference in population was caused by the depletion of the unprotected fish.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320709000536

 

[Luiz Rocha]

You are reading the wrong part of the paper. Here is the main conclusion from the same paper you link above:

"Given the long life-span of yellow tang (>40 years) relative to the duration of protection and the increasing intensity of fishing, the likelihood is that protected areas will become increasingly important sources for the adult fishes which will sustain stocks and the fishery over the longer term."

In other words, if marine protected areas are kept (and they are), the yellow tang population at the Big Island is at no risk. Key words here are "sustain stocks" and "long term fisheries". And once again, the yellow tang is fished heavily only at the Big Island, which is less than 10% of it's range.

 

[Gill_bucket]

You are reading the wrong part of the paper. Here is the main conclusion from the same paper you link above:

"Given the long life-span of yellow tang (>40 years) relative to the duration of protection and the increasing intensity of fishing, the likelihood is that protected areas will become increasingly important sources for the adult fishes which will sustain stocks and the fishery over the longer term."

In other words, if marine protected areas are kept (and they are), the yellow tang population at the Big Island is at no risk. Key words here are "sustain stocks" and "long term fisheries". And once again, the yellow tang is fished heavily only at the Big Island, which is less than 10% of it's range.

Sustain them at what levels? The populations have already dropped to a fifth of what they were in only 8 years. If the populations continue to decrease at the current rate the unprotected fish would all be gone in 24 years.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

I think we are reading different papers. The one I am reading says the density of "prime sized fish" outside reserves dropped by 5x. By prime sized fish, they mean juveniles. The density of adults inside reserves increased by 50% (not 5x as you seem to believe). What this means is that even collecting juveniles at the rate they are, the adult population is not changing much, showing what I am trying to say in my last several messages: that populations of this species (and other herbivores) can sustain a high level of fishing.

But I am curious, since you are so adamant about stopping all fish collection in Hawaii, why stop there? Why not stop all fish collection everywhere? Why stop at fish? Why have an aquarium trade at all?

 

[Gill_bucket]

I think we are reading different papers. The one I am reading says the density of "prime sized fish" outside reserves dropped by 5x. By prime sized fish, they mean juveniles. The density of adults inside reserves increased by 50% (not 5x as you seem to believe). What this means is that even collecting juveniles at the rate they are, the adult population is not changing much, showing what I am trying to say in my last several messages: that populations of this species (and other herbivores) can sustain a high level of fishing.

But I am curious, since you are so adamant about stopping all fish collection in Hawaii, why stop there? Why not stop all fish collection everywhere? Why stop at fish? Why have an aquarium trade at all?

If it was possible to go back and stop what happened in indonisa would you?

This isn't some far off reach of the world we have no control over, we have the power to protect the fish of hawaii.

 

[Gill_bucket]

The density of adults inside reserves increased by 50% (not 5x as you seem to believe).

The population increased inside the reserves??? I didn't claim that they increased at all, I said that the unprotected population decreased.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Oh, so you want to stop fisheries in Hawaii where the most regulated (and sustainable) fisheries is but continue to buy fish from Indonesia because we have no control over their laws? Interesting logic... And by the way, the damage done by aquarium trade collection in Indonesia (even with cyanide) is orders of magnitude lower than that done by food fishing and pollution, literally a drop in the bucket.

Here is what I mean:

Sustain them at what levels? The populations have already dropped to a fifth of what they were in only 8 years. If the populations continue to decrease at the current rate the unprotected fish would all be gone in 24 years.

The populations did not drop to a fifth as you say. Populations of juveniles dropped by 5x outside reserves, but adults dropped by less than half. Quick question, where does the 24 years figure come from? If reserves are there, they will keep supplying adult fish and larvae to adjacent fished areas.